ClassicCar

bent metal

Okay, this is the inside.

It came out alright, since you can't get to the back side I couldn't really do anything about the warpage from welding. It'll work though. ...On to the running boards.

roy chapin

Bent Metal,

I have two questions for you:

#1. I was looking at the photograph of the door skin that is being welded in. It looks like you have tack welded every inch, as per what I have seen in magazines. However, it looks like you are welding it solid from one end to the other? Shouldn't you skip around the weld seem in order to minimize the warpage? As per what I have read?

#2. In the photograph of the A-pillar repair. When the outer skin is removed it looks like there is alot of rust on the hidden sheet metal. Do you paint or treat that metal in some way before welding it up?

I'm not trying to be critical here, I just want to understand the process a little bit better.

Mr. Chapin

bent metal

Hi Mr. Chapin. To answer your question, I can only speak for myself and I'm not saying my current way is right or that I might not try something new in the future. But the way I weld a seam in a door like you are talking about is to spot weld every inch (max.) planish the weld and check the fit with the door back on the car. Then go back and weld it solid from one end to the other, as you had mentioned. I don't skip around on this because I have good access to the back of the weld. I believe the only reason that the magazines tell people to skip around is because it reduces warpage some and if a guy is new to this kind of thing then skipping around would help him keep things under control. It is going to warp, no matter what you do. That's just scientific fact. If you heat a ferrous metal up enough to melt it, it WILL shrink. So to answer your question: "Yep, I weld as far as I can reach. Pull some more rod out and weld as far as I can reach again, from one end of the panel to the other."

As for the inside of an otherwise inaccessible area, yes I do remove the rust and prime the area depending on how far the boss wants me to go. I atleast will wire brush the area and paint it with a rust inhibiting primer. Some guys want me to patch those inside areas as well, some don't. I didn't post pictures of that part because this thread is getting pretty long and I'm trying to basically just show the highlights so people don't get bored with the project. The customer however will get pictures of all of that stuff, they won't get bored because it's their car.

I hope I answered your question, if not, ask me again and I'll try again. I'm learning as I go so if you have another opinion about how to do something I would be interested in hearing your point of view. I know that the way I do things today is different then how I did them five years ago. Always trying to improve. Besides, I love talking about metal, and cars.

Here's a picture for you. I don't think this area will get wet again and it's still solid, so just a wire brushing and a good priming should do.

SRCraftsman2

bent metal wrote:

Hi Mr. Chapin. To answer your question, I can only speak for myself and I'm not saying my current way is right or that I might not try something new in the future. But the way I weld a seam in a door like you are talking about is to spot weld every inch (max.) planish the weld and check the fit with the door back on the car. Then go back and weld it solid from one end to the other, as you had mentioned. I don't skip around on this because I have good access to the back of the weld. I believe the only reason that the magazines tell people to skip around is because it reduces warpage some and if a guy is new to this kind of thing then skipping around would help him keep things under control. It is going to warp, no matter what you do. That's just scientific fact. If you heat a ferrous metal up enough to melt it, it WILL shrink. So to answer your question: "Yep, I weld as far as I can reach. Pull some more rod out and weld as far as I can reach again, from one end of the panel to the other."
As for the inside of an otherwise inaccessible area, yes I do remove the rust and prime the area depending on how far the boss wants me to go. I atleast will wire brush the area and paint it with a rust inhibiting primer. Some guys want me to patch those inside areas as well, some don't. I didn't post pictures of that part because this thread is getting pretty long and I'm trying to basically just show the highlights so people don't get bored with the project. The customer however will get pictures of all of that stuff, they won't get bored because it's their car.
I hope I answered your question, if not, ask me again and I'll try again. I'm learning as I go so if you have another opinion about how to do something I would be interested in hearing your point of view. I know that the way I do things today is different then how I did them five years ago. Always trying to improve. Besides, I love talking about metal, and cars.
Here's a picture for you. I don't think this area will get wet again and it's still solid, so just a wire brushing and a good priming should do.

Bent Metal:

Where are you located and do you hold night classes? Maybe you should start a school for DIY's. :rolleyes:

I had looked into some of the local trade schools to take some basic welding and body work classes, but all they offer is full two year programs. The Vo-tech's associated with the public schools do not have any evening adult classes. I guess it is back to books, DVD's and trail and error.

bent metal

I would love to teach a classs some day. Maybe after I get more experience and I get to where I feel like I can competently answer questions. Right now I think I have more questions than answers. Oh, I'm located in Southern California.

As for my personal education goes. I guess I don't really have a proper education. I started out reading a lot of magazine articles on metal shaping. But the more you read the more they contradict each other. So you have to sort it out in your head, kind of discard some of the information as a guys personal superstition or quirk. Like one guy will only grind the back of a weld and plannish. The next guy will grind both sides then plannish. Both jobs come out fine, so which is the right way to do it? I don't know, which ever works best for you I guess. What I ended up doing is watching a lot of videos and going to these weekend classes. In perticular the Ron Covell classes. But he does everything by "hand". He's good at that hammer and dolly work and he promotes that style of metal shaping. It's a good way to get started and you can actually build an entire car body that way. It would take forever, but you could do it. After taking several of those classes Mr. Covell suggested that I should go a step further and take a Fay Butler class. Which I did. Fay Butler can make entire body parts or cars without even picking up a hand held body hammer. He tries to use only the big machines and does very little with a hand held body hammer. He's the best of the best, and his work proves it. He also doesn't grind his welds! Not at all! I have seen an entire front clip (Lotus) that he made and I couldn't see a tooling mark or a grind mark on it anywhere. It's amazing.

So my recamendation would be as you said, books and videos. Maybe look up Ron Covell and see when he will be in your area and what class he will be teaching at that time. After you get some experience think more seriously about taking a class with Fay Butler in Massachussettes. Maybe talk to Fay right now too? Just understand that he is like taking an advanced course and you should have some experience before going to see him. Check him out at http://www.faybutler.com/

Atleast that's what I did.

Hudson308

Hey, Bender;

I'm not bored with your thread yet, and it's not my car!!!

Seriously, nice smithin'.

I've used a zinc-chromate etch primer from Dupont called Vari-Prime on some of those inaccessible areas to keep the rust gremlins from doin' their nefarious deeds. Another alternative might be simply slathering some POR-15 in there... along with the backsides of door panels, rocker panels, etc. once all the welding is finished.

bent metal

I've thought about using that POR-15, everyone seems to like it. I use a fast drying primer right now.

This is what I ended up doing for the running boards. I tried to keep it simple and strong. It might of looked nicer to extend the existing running board brackets in the same shape that they are already in. But I didn't do that. I'll make removable plugs for the end of the square tubing later.

The blue tape line is where I'm planning on cutting to widen the back fender.

46HudsonPU

Very nice, beautiful work. Looks like a good solution to support the front of the running board.

willy74

SRCraftsman2 wrote:

Bent Metal:

Where are you located and do you hold night classes? Maybe you should start a school for DIY's. :rolleyes:

I had looked into some of the local trade schools to take some basic welding and body work classes, but all they offer is full two year programs. The Vo-tech's associated with the public schools do not have any evening adult classes. I guess it is back to books, DVD's and trail and error.

It's about as far away from PA as you can get, but here's a weekend class for you http://www.sunchasertools.com/.

My buddy took it and learned a lot that he didn't learn when he went to restoration college at McPhearson. I'd like to take it sometime this year. It's a good hands on introduction.

Bent Metal - Keep up the great work!

46HudsonPU

A lot of online videos here for the basics on welding (MIG, TIG, etc...) -

http://www.expertvillage.com/search.htm?s=MIG+Welding

bent metal

Okay, here's what's new. I think I will only have to take the running boards off again one more time!

Just to weld the back piece on where it will meet the rear fender. That's alright because I forgot to take picture of the under side of them anyhow. Ooops. The pictures are to give you an idea of how low this thing is. With no motor or trans, or interior, or anything else, the running board is still a half inch lower than a soda can. I think it's coming together nice, the owner had some really good ideas. IMO. I like it!

bent metal

It's going to drag on a squished soda can! haha:D Here's some other views.

The lower hinge was just sort of hanging there, waiting for me to get a decent fit on the outer door skin. Once I got the fit satisfactory, I completed the inner structure (diagonal piece), which triangulated the whole thing and made it strong. The three holes I added because I think it made it look cool, and it adds a little strength too. ...Rambo talked me into buying that hole punch press and I love it! I want to put flanged holes in everything!

The concave door skin is at the owners request. I think it makes the car more quite when it's all done. That's just screwed in, of course.

bent metal

More pictures.

...And that's about it, next stop, the rear fenders.

Ron P

This thing is BAD A$$$$$ Guy..Tell your mom and dad hi for me. Ron

bent metal

Ron P wrote:

This thing is BAD A$$$$$ Guy..Tell your mom and dad hi for me. Ron

Thanks Ron, too bad I don't get to keep it. I'll tell my folks and hope to see you in San Diego this weekend.

Also, do you think you could show me a picture of you water distribution tube on your '29? I need to make one of those.

Ron P

I could do you one better and mail you a new stainless reproduction that John Meadows from Australia sent me. The original on my 29 is still in good shape and will be quite awhile before I need the new one. PM me your address or I can send it to your parents house. How soon do you need it ? Also someone on here was looking for the same but for a 1930-31 8 cylinder witch is not the same.

rambos_ride

Glad the hole punch is working out - now I have to buy one

Hey - just a suggestion...the "filler" panel you have screwed on, maybe a small bead around the perimeter and a couple short ones lengthwise - it'd look better and not want to warble when driving down the road @ mach1

Not that I want to make more work for you that the customer won't pay for and no one but a mechanic will ever see
:eek:

Projekt

Well... Seeing all that really gets me motivated to do something with my 41..

bent metal

rambos_ride wrote:

Glad the hole punch is working out - now I have to buy one

Hey - just a suggestion...the "filler" panel you have screwed on, maybe a small bead around the perimeter and a couple short ones lengthwise - it'd look better and not want to warble when driving down the road @ mach1

Not that I want to make more work for you that the customer won't pay for and no one but a mechanic will ever see

:eek:

You know, I laid awake all night before I made those two pieces (the diagonal and that flat one). I got a little fancy on the diagonal, but I think that was important. The 'flat' piece isn't really flat. I wheeled it on my english wheel enough to dish it in about three eighths in the center and I left the outside flat. It can't oil can/warble, it's like a great big dish. I thought about making beads on that panel but the boss specifically asked me to just put a flat piece in there and move on. I think I was pushing it to do as much as I did.

That panel looks flat until you take it off and set it on a table, then you can really see how much shape it has.

The next car will get beads rolled in like your talking about, that would of been faster and easier.

bent metal

Projekt wrote:

Well... Seeing all that really gets me motivated to do something with my 41..

Good good!!! I hope you do. Did you notice that we removed the wind wings? I think it makes the car look lower and longer. Almost looks chopped, almost.

bent metal

Started on the back fenders today. I haven't worked out the details yet, but I needed to get something done.

46HudsonPU

Now you've got me curious... :confused: Can't wait to see what you do with it!

SRCraftsman2

46HudsonPU wrote:

Now you've got me curious... :confused: Can't wait to see what you do with it!

That's what I was thinking, especially when he is not sure what he is going to do.:eek:

rambos_ride

SRCraftsman2 wrote:

That's what I was thinking, especially when he is not sure what he is going to do.:eek:

Just from a purely aesthetic standpoint (and fully functional) would be that he's splitting the fender to make it a skoosh wider.

Aesthetically a slightly wider rear fender would look good with the wider front fenders and functionally for a fatter tire and some more clearance when its sitting on the ground.

Just a guess mind you...

Hudson308

That's what I was guessin' too, Dan...

46HudsonPU

rambos_ride wrote:

Just from a purely aesthetic standpoint (and fully functional) would be that he's splitting the fender to make it a skoosh wider.

Aesthetically a slightly wider rear fender would look good with the wider front fenders and functionally for a fatter tire and some more clearance when its sitting on the ground.

Just a guess mind you...

Sort of figured - And with his talent, I am curious as to how it will be done...

bent metal

Sorry for the confusion. If you look in the first two pictures of the rear fender you can see there is a gap where the fender meets the running board. The plan is to reshape the fender and bring it out so it fills the gap and ends up about an inch wider then before. Probably about flush with the running board edge (if you were looking down the side of the car).

The tire actually needs to be a bit smaller too. The rim is ok, but the tire is too wide. Right now the only way to get the back wheel off is to first remove the back fender. :eek: Not very convenient if you should get a flat along the road somewhere.

The reason I cut the fender like I did was because I want to visualize it better. So I'm removing the triangular piece, it's junk. The large side piece is good just the way it is. The flange where the fender meets the body has a bad fit from the factory. There is a small body line that the fender should follow. Sorta' out-line the fender. That reveal varied from about a half inch to flush. It could look better.

So that's the plan. An inch wider, remake the front area, and better fit where it bolts up to the body. ...Now I'll mock it up and decide on some details. Like maybe continue the detail line from the running board into the fender? Maybe end the line where the fender and running board meet? I don't know yet. Any opinions or ideas???

bent metal

How about this?

Kevin C.

That looks good! They used that same transition on the front fenders of the 1939's and it should still allow you to use fender skirts if you like that style! Though I don't know how skirts would look on a sedan.

Kevin C.

rambos_ride

bent metal wrote:

How about this?

I'd carry the bodyline thru on the rear fenders as you illustrated...possibly redo the front fender to running board for a smoother transition (ie matches the back)

bent metal

I think I'm going to have to get the basic shape done and work on the details later, if I have time. I remade the front part of the mounting flange and patched the mounting holes in the very back. Now I'm working on the triangle piece.

bent metal

I think it needs to be a little more round, not so flat where it's been widened.

Hudson308

Yeah, like that!

Wow.

Are you working with a planishing hammer or a wheel?

bent metal

I'm shrinking with the Pullmax using a thumb nail die then smoothing everything out with the plannishing hammer. I also use the English Wheel a little bit, mostly just on big areas that have just a slight curve to them. Like a door skin.

mrsbojigger

Hi Bent,
Just curious! Do you belong to MM?
Peace,
Chaz

bent metal

mrsbojigger wrote:

Hi Bent,

Just curious! Do you belong to MM?

Peace,

Chaz

I'm pretty sure your talking about "Metal Meet"? I've been on their web site, it's been years, but I've been there. I know Stan Fulton who is pretty active in that club. He's a good guy. I do try and see what others are doing to try and learn things from them. I look around on the "Jalopy" web site, I think it's called and also once in a while on "allshops". For right now I think my biggest obstacle is lack of experience. I need to do a little less reading and more working.

But yes, I agree Metal Meet is a great place to learn.

bent metal

I've had a few e-mails/PMs from people asking me to give more details of how I did certain parts of this build. So I'll try to do that without getting too crazy. These next pictures are of the bottom side of the running board, now with the rear end caps on. Then I wanted to test fit the fenders on the car before I did all the final welding. They warped a little more then I had hoped, but it will all work out okay. ...If I ever do another job like this I would do it different. I would remake the body mount flange and make it wider. The width of the fender widening. That way there would only be one weld seem down the length of the fender. I got a little rushed, but this will work fine. Just more work for me the way I did it.

rambos_ride

The running board to fender is looking good.

Wider! Make it Wider ~ the owner pays gas taxes right? Wider fenders Lets them use the whole lane up - getting more out of their tax dollars!

jsrail

Wow dude! That's some beautiful work. Keep the pics coming so the rest of us can drool over work can't do!

bent metal

rambos_ride wrote:

The running board to fender is looking good.

Wider! Make it Wider ~ the owner pays gas taxes right? Wider fenders Lets them use the whole lane up - getting more out of their tax dollars!

Hahaha! The guy wanted about an inch wider and that's pretty much what he got. I made the front (on the top) an inch wider and the back a half inch wider. But, the bottom is leaned out a total of about two inches. This makes the fender look more straight up and down, doesn't tuck under so much. That also helps a lot toward bigger wheel clearance. It would be great if someone had a stock fender and could post a picture so we could see how much of a difference leaning the fender makes. It also helps to make the car look less top heavy, IMO. Just a side note, even after all of this I still couldn't get the tire on!!! You can get the wheel on, or the fender on, but not both at the same time. With the wheel on I couldn't reach the top most bolts in the fender, only the ends. So I told the boss, he says no, I want those wheels on that car. Hmmm, okay?? So I ended up bolting the fender on then lifting the car up as far as I could and disconecting the suspension, dropping it down far enough to mount the wheels. Then dropped the body back down over the mounted wheels and bolted everything back up!:eek: haha, crazy.

But I think the overall look is good. I just don't want to be the one who has to change the tires!

bent metal

I still want to knit pick the fenders a little bit. But they're pretty much done.

bent metal

The wheels fill up the hole real nice, just too big to take on and off. If I remember right they are 295s, or so. Anyhow, this is about it. I also decided to go ahead and remake the fender support piece. The old ones would of had to of been widened and straightened and the mounting holes were too sloppy. Better to just make new, IMO.

rambos_ride

Lookin' good...I still think the rear fender needs to be fatter Really..I'd like to see the rears widen out as much as the front fenders do - the look from front to back would be more symetrical. IMHO

-

bent metal

rambos_ride wrote:

Lookin' good...I still think the rear fender needs to be fatter Really..I'd like to see the rears widen out as much as the front fenders do - the look from front to back would be more symetrical. IMHO -

Yeah, maybe. I wanna' see it outside. Then we'll see if it looks right or not. I was thinking it might of looked better if the running boards got more narrow towards the back. That would do like you say, make the front and back more symetrical without the rear fenders hanging way out. But, I'm sure as heck not going to change it now! :DIf the owner doesn't like the look I can unbolt the running boards and make new or alter those ones. We'll see.

bent metal

Okay, my to-do list is done. Unless the boss wants something changed or added, my part is finished. I'll try and get pictures of her as things get done by other people.

Hope you enjoyed the journey.

bent metal

During the build I couldn't really take a good photo of the passenger side (garage is too small) so here ya' go. ...Nice to be able to step back and take a look.

bent metal

hmmm, wonder what it would look like as a "street rod, ...or a "low rider", ...or a tail dragger? :rolleyes:

rambos_ride

You, very rightly - should be proud of your work...I wish I was the bodyshop getting this car

Most of the time "metal guys" don't finish their work out to the quality shown in your project-progress photos.

Hopefully you were able to put some "food on the table" with this project and it wasn't all done "for the love of metal work

"

Thanks for sharing the pics - when do you want to start your own website for your business?

bent metal

rambos_ride wrote:

You, very rightly - should be proud of your work...I wish I was the bodyshop getting this car

Thank you very much Dan. Yeah a lot of parts had to come together and fit tight. Time consuming.

Most of the time "metal guys" don't finish their work out to the quality shown in your project-progress photos.

Hopefully you were able to put some "food on the table" with this project and it wasn't all done "for the love of metal work "

Your so right! It seems like a fine line between doing the work and being happy with it and not putting so much time in that it goes above and beyond what I can reasonably charge a guy. ...So I think I put some food on the table, but it wasn't steak, we had spaghetti. Which is fine with me.

Thanks for sharing the pics - when do you want to start your own website for your business?

Are you wanting to build web sites now?

rambos_ride

bent metal wrote:

Are you wanting to build web sites now?

That's what I do - um... did for a living :rolleyes: up until a couple of weeks ago!

My usual website work is custom, database driven (ie expensive to build) but we could throw together a static website with some upload capabilities to let you manage the content pretty simply and then most of the cost involved is for the domain name and hosting.

Having a website to promote your work and yourself would pay off eventually!

Send me and email or pm if you want to explore it some more.

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