ClassicCar

Harry Hill

I've been running the electric fuel pump ever since I got that bad batch of fuel. I started thinking the other day that there was probably nothing wrong with my manual pump other than junk in the filter. So today I pulled the pump off and sure enough the filter was pretty badly plugged up. I cleaned it and I'm sure it is fine but I also noticed a lot of oil in the filter which tells me the diaphram probably has a hole in it and needs to be replaced. Now I need to know who makes a rebuild kit that is safe with todays fuels. The pump is an AC dual action pump, I can't find any numbers on it. It is on my 55 Hornet, 308 twin H engine.

Harry

Uncle Josh

Dave Kostansik, 440-994-9173 or 440-293-4079 or

Antique Parts Cellar

http://www.then-now.com/The_Cellar/cellar.htm

Harry Hill

Thanks Josh.

Harry

464Saloon

If you already have an electric pump,why not just eliminate the mechanical pump? You don't need it. My car is just running an electric only and I just did the same conversion for Neils car. Less chances of vapor locking too which Hudsons are famous for. A standard Chevy block off plate from any parts store will bolt right up to a 308.

Uncle Josh

Friend of mine had his electric go belly up last weekend here and lwe got him home on his mechanical after replacing missing insulating tubes around the mounting bolts.

Just saw another post where a guy's fairly new electric gave up the ghost..

If you don't have a mechanical when this happens, where are ya? Besides, the pump hole covered by a plate looks dorky.

Harry Hill

Josh, while I am using the electric as the primary pump right now I plan on using it as only a back-up once I get the manual pump working again. I will set it up using Walt Mordenti's plan with the dual line filter and only turn on the electric when the Hash has set for awhile or if I start to vapor lock.

Harry

hudsonguy

Harry Hill wrote:

Josh, while I am using the electric as the primary pump right now I plan on using it as only a back-up once I get the manual pump working again. I will set it up using Walt Mordenti's plan with the dual line filter and only turn on the electric when the Hash has set for awhile or if I start to vapor lock.

Harry

Using Walt's set-up on my '49 has worked like a charm over these last few years. Not a single vapor lock episode with the fuel return line, in any kind of weather!

I was glad to have the electric pump to get me home after a recent mechanical pump failure! I normally just use it for priming. On the way home from Back to the 50's recently, the car started to die while at highway speed. All I had to do was flip the switch for the electric to get me home, where I discovered the mechanical pump I had did indeed break!

464Saloon

hudsonguy wrote:

Using Walt's set-up on my '49 has worked like a charm over these last few years. Not a single vapor lock episode with the fuel return line, in any kind of weather!

I was glad to have the electric pump to get me home after a recent mechanical pump failure! I normally just use it for priming. On the way home from Back to the 50's recently, the car started to die while at highway speed. All I had to do was flip the switch for the electric to get me home, where I discovered the mechanical pump I had did indeed break!

Any pump can fail electric or mechanical as any other part on a car. I don't think a mechanical pump has been used on a production car in 25+ years, so electrics are fully capable of getting the job done. Mechanical pumps are old school and in my opinion look dorky. If you are trying to be all origional that is understood, but IMHO, if you are going to drive it and are going to have an electric pump anyway, you might as well toss the mechanical aside.

hudsonguy

464Saloon wrote:

Any pump can fail electric or mechanical as any other part on a car. I don't think a mechanical pump has been used on a production car in 25+ years, so electrics are fully capable of getting the job done. Mechanical pumps are old school and in my opinion look dorky. If you are trying to be all origional that is understood, but IMHO, if you are going to drive it and are going to have an electric pump anyway, you might as well toss the mechanical aside.

One big difference with current production cars using electric fuel pumps is that they have a safety device built in that shuts off the pump in the event of a crash. I'd suggest if you're relying solely on an electric pump that you do the same. I know, it's highly unlikely that you'd ever need it.....but that's when stuff happens!

SuperDave

hudsonguy wrote:

One big difference with current production cars using electric fuel pumps is that they have a safety device built in that shuts off the pump in the event of a crash. I'd suggest if you're relying solely on an electric pump that you do the same. I know, it's highly unlikely that you'd ever need it.....but that's when stuff happens!

They usually are computer controlled and will run for a few seconds during startup then must see oil pressure to continue running. A little hard to do on a Hudson or non cumputer car, but not impossible. Maybe wire the pump through a grounding (normally open with no pressure) oil pressure switch, then have a momentary bypass button to start on, like maybe the start button? Just a thought.

Then take the innards out of the mechanical pump and run a straight line through the pump, so everything looks stock?

hudsonguy

SuperDave wrote:

They usually are computer controlled and will run for a few seconds during startup then must see oil pressure to continue running. A little hard to do on a Hudson or non cumputer car, but not impossible. Maybe wire the pump through a grounding (normally open with no pressure) oil pressure switch, then have a momentary bypass button to start on, like maybe the start button? Just a thought.

Then take the innards out of the mechanical pump and run a straight line through the pump, so everything looks stock?

I've seen street rods that used a safety 'relay' that is designed for non computer cars. I think Ron Francis Wiring sells a kit that performs this function.

Yeah, here it is; http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dyndetail~Z5Z5Z50000278a~Z5Z5Z5AAAOB~P88.95~~~~S2F30O4KJJ21617016250h~Z5Z5Z5~Z5Z5Z50000278a

SuperDave

The street rodders really DO serve a purpose ! LOL

J Lombard

Harry:

What is Walt Mordenti's Plan as it relates to a dual action mechanical pump?

thanks

J

Harry Hill

J the Cliff's notes version, a dual outlet fuel filter goes after the mechanical pump with a return line to the fuel tank. The idea is the excess fuel from the pump will return to the tank and not be restricted, this keeps the fuel pump cooler and helps resist vapor lock, there is more to it than this and Walt can explain it much better than I can.

Harry

Harry Hill

hudsonguy wrote:

Using Walt's set-up on my '49 has worked like a charm over these last few years. Not a single vapor lock episode with the fuel return line, in any kind of weather!

Hudsonguy, what did you use to restrict the return flow?

Harry

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 July 2008 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

Harry Hill wrote:

Hudsonguy, what did you use to restrict the return flow?

Harry

Walt here. The return line must have a restriction any where in the line. Mine is in the trunk where it goes into the filler neck. You can install it anywhere. The plug then must have a 0.030 thousand hole to create a back pressure. Anything larger will starve fuel going up steep grades.

Harry Hill

Walt, did you just drill out an inline plug or did you use a manufactured flow restricter. Also, did I get the jist of your instructions close enough. I am still waiting to hear from Dave Kostenak regarding the fuel pump rebuild kit so with the manual fuel pump off the car I am dead in the water until I get things back together. Since the car is parked in the dirt I am avoiding taking things apart until I can get it moved back onto a solid surface.

Harry

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 July 2008 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

Harry Hill wrote:

Walt, did you just drill out an inline plug or did you use a manufactured flow restricter. Also, did I get the jist of your instructions close enough. I am still waiting to hear from Dave Kostenak regarding the fuel pump rebuild kit so with the manual fuel pump off the car I am dead in the water until I get things back together. Since the car is parked in the dirt I am avoiding taking things apart until I can get it moved back onto a solid surface.

Harry

To start with, I see Dave has his business for sale in the latest WTN, and hope who buys it continues his service. I used a 3/4 inch x 1/4 inch brass plug and drilled the 0.030 hole through it and installed in the 1/4 inch neoprene line to the tank. You can install it anywhere. Connect the fuel line to the bottom of the 3 outlet AMC fuel filter, turn on the pump and you can drive your car to solid ground. Bypass the original pump. If you need anymore info write here, Walt.

Harry Hill

Walt, I think I can wait for a few days, Dave may be at the National. I e-mailed him Saturday in a second attempt to make contact but I think his shop is closed on weekends, I will probably hear something tomorrow. In the meantime I can set up the filter return line and filter and get everything plumbed into place. I hate the thought of drilling into my fuel tank to install the return line and getting metal shavings into my tank.

Harry

Dave53-7C

Then tie a string around a rag and shove it...down your filler neck. Pull it and the shavings out when you're done. I'd be more worried about blowing the car and myself up.

Harry Hill

Dave, I guess that could happen if I tried to just shove the drill through, or I can take off the filler neck and drill it away from the tank.

Harry

Dave53-7C

Harry,

Not sure if the filler neck on your tank is easily removed. Even if you had to remove the entire tank, I think that would be safer. I'm not sure about your car, but on cars like Walt's for example, there is a vent tube that can be accessed from trunk. As such, you cut out a section of it with tubing cutter and splice in a tee using small pieces of modern gas line hose.

Dave

RonS

Harry, I just completed the " bypass" job on my 53 hornet a couple of months ago. The only differance from Walts' instructions is that I did not want another fuel filter in the line( have one by the tank and the AC glass bowl at the top of the carb line), so I used a brass T to send some excess fuel to the 1/4" return line.You should have a filter before the electric pump.Also, check your fuel pump pressure with both pumps. You don't want to flood the float bowl(s).

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 July 2008 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

Harry Hill wrote:

Walt, I think I can wait for a few days, Dave may be at the National. I e-mailed him Saturday in a second attempt to make contact but I think his shop is closed on weekends, I will probably hear something tomorrow. In the meantime I can set up the filter return line and filter and get everything plumbed into place. I hate the thought of drilling into my fuel tank to install the return line and getting metal shavings into my tank.

Harry

Use a battery powered drill, apply wheel bearing grease on the drill and if any chips fall in, the filter before the electric pump will catch it. No worries here. When I said to hook to the 3 outlet filter, just bypass the engine pump, to get it started to move it. I use 3 filters, 1 before the electric pump, 1 before the engine fuel pump and the 3 outlet AMC pump before the carbs. Todays gas needs these filters. Modern cars have a filter that needs 30 pounds to filter. Don't forget to install that 0.030 plug in the return line. Walt.

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 July 2008 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

RonS wrote:

Harry, I just completed the " bypass" job on my 53 hornet a couple of months ago. The only differance from Walts' instructions is that I did not want another fuel filter in the line( have one by the tank and the AC glass bowl at the top of the carb line), so I used a brass T to send some excess fuel to the 1/4" return line.You should have a filter before the electric pump.Also, check your fuel pump pressure with both pumps. You don't want to flood the float bowl(s).

With the fuel return line you can never flood your carbs. As soon as you shut off your engine pressure drops to zero. No hot flooding starts. You can run both pumps with no worries. Walt.

hudsonguy

Harry Hill wrote:

Hudsonguy, what did you use to restrict the return flow?

Harry

Harry,

As Walt stated there are a number of ways to do it. I chose the slightly more expensive route, and purchased a 'flow control orifice', along with a couple of hose barb fittings. I installed this in the engine compartment, (along with rubber fuel line and clamps) where the return line exits the new filter. I couldn't find a (.030) hole size that Walt recommended, so I bought a couple of different sizes (.032, and .025) I ended up using the smaller one, it just ran slightly better with that size. Walt saw these mod's on my car last year at Auburn, and approved of what I'd done!

Here's a link to where I got the orifice and fittings;

http://www.mcmaster.com/

The flow control orifice: P/N 2712T429

The barb fittings: P/N 5346K42

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 July 2008 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

hudsonguy wrote:

Harry,

As Walt stated there are a number of ways to do it. I chose the slightly more expensive route, and purchased a 'flow control orifice', along with a couple of hose barb fittings. I installed this in the engine compartment, (along with rubber fuel line and clamps) where the return line exits the new filter. I couldn't find a (.030) hole size that Walt recommended, so I bought a couple of different sizes (.032, and .025) I ended up using the smaller one, it just ran slightly better with that size. Walt saw these mod's on my car last year at Auburn, and approved of what I'd done!

Here's a link to where I got the orifice and fittings;

http://www.mcmaster.com/

The flow control orifice: P/N 2712T429

The barb fittings: P/N 5346K42

You did a very neat job on your set up. Post a picture and let all see how simply it is to do. Are you using the AMC pump? Walt.

Harry Hill

I finally got my kit ordered from Tom of Then and Now Auto, it seems my pump is a Ford unit with a Hudson arm and bottom casting,he could tell that from the number on the flange and from talking with me. I would like to see a picture of Arnie's setup. It will probably help me to keep mine clean and funtional.

Harry

Harry Hill

Arnie, is this on your 37? I'm asking because I'm wondering if I would be better off with the .030 on a later model Hudson like my 55. It might be the .025 worked better on a smaller pump? Just wondering?

Harry

hudsonguy

walt's garage-53 wrote:

You did a very neat job on your set up. Post a picture and let all see how simply it is to do. Are you using the AMC pump? Walt.

Hope this works. I'm trying to load some pic's.

I am indeed using the AMC pump. You can see a small bracket I made atop my motor mount that I then strap the fuel filter to. You can see the restriction in the rubber line coming out of that.

Hope this helps.

Hudsonly,

Doug

Harry Hill

Doug, nice looking set up, seeing your's will help me from doing something ugly with mine, thanks a lot.

Harry

Harry Hill

I'm getting closer to getting the Hash back going, I finally got my rebuild kit, now I just need the time to do the rebuild. I'm looking at the orifice for the return line and darn, .030 sure looks like a small hole for the return. It doesn't seem like it will flow enough to make a difference. I guess I'll know once I start driving in hot weather again.

Harry

silverone

With all this talk about this or that modification to keep a Hudson running due to fuel delivery problems and "vapor lock", one begins to wonder how the heck did people keep them going when they were buying them new ??

If they were so famous for vapor locking, one gets a picture of Hudsons all over America, or even the world for that matter, back in the forties or fifties, sitting by the side of the road, or at the drive-ins, or office parking lot, or wherever, with pi**ed off owners cranking away on the starters trying to get the damned thing running again.

Makes me wonder how they sold the things, because wouldn't they become widely known for this issue, and people begin to steer away from sales lots selling those "unreliable vapor locking Hudsons" ?

Anybody remember the fifties when new Hudsons were running around out there everywhere? I was just a kid then, but I don't remember my Dad's new Hudsons ever having this problem, even on the long trips we took each summer, or around home. ( although one car he had that was only a week old burned to the ground out in the driveway in the middle of the night ).

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that ---- now we'll have stories of how Hudsons used to burn up due to poor wiring or some such malady. :-)

Harry Hill

I can't remember one car we had from the forties and fifties that didn't vapor lock on one of our annual trips to the Sierras. That long grade going north on Highway 395 always had turn-outs with cars parked in them waiting for things to cool down, all makes and models. We often left after midnight so we could make the long grade in the cool morning hours. I don't think I ever owned a car made after 1960 that had the problem though so somewhere along the way the problem was cured. AMC and others went to the fuel return line and electric pumps at the back by the tank. No more manual fuel pumps. Plus in the old days everyone was working on cures for vapor locking, from wooden cloths pins clipped on the fuel line to wrapping the line with different materials to act like a heat sink. I don't know about back east but out here in the far west everyone delt with vapor locking as it happened and tried to prevent it, it was common enough though that even after not having a car that would vapor lock for over twenty years I knew what it was the second it happened to the Hash.

The day it happened though I had been coming up a hill with many stops for six miles on a day where the air temp was over 105, extreme conditions to say the least, it hasn't happened since but on the really hot days I drive my truck.

Harry

Hudsonrules

Hi Harry , This is Arnie, I went back to a mechanical fuel pump on my '37 terraplane as the electric fuel pump quit working. I replaced the fuel line from the tank to the carburator, installed one filter before the fuel pump, second filter before the carburator. Hpefully there will not be any vapor locks. Hope you get your'55 back on the road soon. Arnie

Harry Hill

Thanks Arnie, I am close to getting back on the road, lack of time is my biggest problem. I haven't given up on the Super Six either, just trying to get things lined up to make it work. There is a 49 Super Six Brougham down here for sale, really nice car but way out of my budget. It is a ready to go driver though without any issues, of course I would have to pay dearly to have that convenience. Anyway, I plan on having the electric as a back up once I get the mechanical pump going again.

Harry

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 August 2008 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

Harry Hill wrote:

I'm getting closer to getting the Hash back going, I finally got my rebuild kit, now I just need the time to do the rebuild. I'm looking at the orifice for the return line and darn, .030 sure looks like a small hole for the return. It doesn't seem like it will flow enough to make a difference. I guess I'll know once I start driving in hot weather again.

Harry

The 0.030 is the correct size for the pressure that runs the hudson. We are talking about 41/2 to 7 pounds pressure. Even with both, electric and mechanical pump working you still only have that amount of pressure. Don't let anyone tell you different. Those of you that have my system installed and have a pressure gauge in the carburetor line, start your engine, turn on the electric pump and read the pressure. Tell all what your reading is. Mine shows 5 pounds.

ClassicCar

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

We'd love to hear from you! info@classiccar.com