ClassicCar

464Saloon

I know this one has been kicked around before but I haven't seen quite what I am looking for so here goes. I am getting ready for the Western Regional and it is a bit of a drive for me. Currently I am running older General 215/70/15 in front and older Toyo's in back of the same size. Not the greatest ride and handling I must admit. Rims are the stock 15 x 5. I want to have the centers put in a 7 wide safety rim style. I was thinking maybe even going 16 or 17 diameter since I may have more tire choices that way. That's what everyone is running these days. I know I have seen 235/75/15 put on a stepdown but has anyone tried a 245 for more width and a 70 series to get the diameter down so it fits? Thoughts and comments?

Thanks,

nick s

width, not height is your concern. 235 are getting a bit too tight (so no 245's) and you will probably find that 225 is a better option. that in mind 7" will fit but lean twoards 6". either way mopar wheels are out there (guide pin holes was even still there into the 60s).

464Saloon

Is it width that is a problem or diameter? I thought if they were too tall you couldn't get them on and off the back. I went to put a 235/75/15 on there from my Ford truck because I was told the pattern was the same but it wasn't. Didn't look like width was a problem.

BJ__TN

ON the 235-70-15s I had on My 54 coupe, the tread width was not a problem but the sidewalls would not let the tire go under the fender (The sidewall on most tires is wider than the tread width) unless the air was let out, then after they were on the car they could be aired up and were fine, with no rubbing or binding. On the front the only problem was if you got into a situation where you had to turn lock to lock. at full lock there was a slight rub against the subframe. Again, that was afull lock only. In normal everyday driving I never felt them rub.
On 235-75-15s in the rear you encounter the same problems but from the heigth more than the width. Same fix, let the air out, put them on, air them back up. Front is the same deal Rubs at full lock left or right.
Too much trouble for me so I have 215-75-15 with stock rims on my cars. still tight getting them on in the rear but it can be done.
Bob

Hudson Dave

Hi Hudson Dave here. www.FatWhiteWalls.com . P225=75-15 are the correct size for a stepdown . P225=75-15=OME 760=15 . I nave installed many sets of this size with NO Problems . Dan White posts on this site and he has a set on his car . or go to my website and clic on top and reed what peter had to say about them . T answer your question about wheel size . A 5 Inch wide wheel is good to take a P225=75-15 tire with no problem . The problem going to a wider wheel is in the cross section of the tire will rub on the fender and in some cases you will need to let the air out as mentioned or take the shook loose . Ether way is no fun on the road. Hudson Dave

464Saloon

OK I already knew what stock was I was trying to figure if anyone had tried more. I like the twisties and the look of a wide tire. So it sounds like I am safe to go with a 7 inch rim. Anyone tried going up to a 16 or 17 inch wheel? I would imagine it would be fine as long as the tire you use overall diameter is OK. I am thinking a 245 would be nice. I am not concerned about the tire change on the road because my spare will be small, and obviously if I have to change a tire that means the big one doesn't have air right.

Dave53-7C

As I'm sure you know, changing wheel diameter will require speedo recalibration. Are there any concerns with the effect on steering geometry when increasing wheel diameter?

nick s

Dave53-7C wrote:

As I'm sure you know, changing wheel diameter will require speedo recalibration. Are there any concerns with the effect on steering geometry when increasing wheel diameter?

the most adverse effects would come in an inrease in the stresses seen in the spindle, bearings, king pins, control arms etc. another side effect would be raising the center of gravity.

66patrick66

The only reason you would change the speedo calibration would be is if the diameter of the tire were different! You can have a 235-75R15 tire and then have a 17" or 18" tire be exactly the same diameter, meaning the same number of rotations per mile.

dynolou

I have 15 by 6 1/2 on my 54 Hornet Club coupe, with P225-75-15 tires on them. Front clearence OK, rearend has to be at full droop , with some prying involved to get tires on. I would recommend a 6 inch rim. I don't think you could get a 7 inch wide rim between the brake drum and outer frame member. Lou Cote

Hudson308

Actually, I've got P225 60R-16's on mine. The wheels are 16 x 7", with 3-1/2" back spacing. I've never had the tires rub inside the rear wheel house or in the front, even with the car fully loaded with gear and people. I had to modify the bottom rear edge of the skirts to clear the tire sidewall, but everything else fits fine. A 6" wide rim would have bolted right in.

464Saloon

308 that sounds pretty good. I would imagine with a 60 series you could go up to a 235 or 245. Did you modify your stock rims or are they a completley different set?

Dave53-7C

nick s wrote:

the most adverse effects would come in an inrease in the stresses seen in the spindle, bearings, king pins, control arms etc. another side effect would be raising the center of gravity.

Thanks for the info. I was wonder what the effects of using an increased tire diameter would do...now I know.

464Saloon

After doing some figuring, it is looking like a 235-65-16 will be perfect. A little more width and .2 inches shorter that stock.

hudsonguy

Another thing to keep in mind when going to a wider tire is not only clearance in installing them on the back, but also the increased clearance required on the front 'turning' wheels.

I've got 225/75's on my '49, and I noticed that after about 16K miles, that the right front is starting to wear a small hole in my steel brake lines where they lay against the outside of the frame. I've also got a steel fuel return line that I routed alongside the stock brake line location, so I'm glad I noticed this now, and not when I was leaking something down the road. This wear has obviously occured when turning hard right, and the wider radial is now contacting things that the original skinny bias ply tire had no clearance problems with.

Hudson308

Rob; Your email address loaded in when I tried responding didn't work for me. The wheels I have mounted are aftermarket (billet aluminum) wheels. I believe the modification you're contemplating would work well... but you'll need to modify the lower rear corners of the skirts if you use 7" wide rims on a stepdown.

As far as my rolling height goes, I'm a bit embarrassed that I'm not sure if my tires are actually P225 60R-16's or 235's. The car is in storage until the end of March, so I can't verify this. I previously posted the shorter size so as not to mislead anyone into buying tires that don't fit.

I have an 18-tooth speedo gear installed in the (manual) transmission, and 4.10 gears in the stock differential. Speedometer is just about dead accurate.

I can verify the tire size in a couple of months, but my guess is you'll want to nail this down sooner than that. Sorry for the delayed response.

464Saloon

I am actually thinking maybe a 235/65/16. It comes out withing .2 of the height of the original tire but of course wider. Have to call the rim guy to see what it will cost to modify my rims.

464Saloon

Anyone know what the stock wheel offset is? My car is tied up at the upholsterers and I am still researching this tire thing. I think I am going to stick with the 15 inch but widen them to 7inch and run a 245/70/15. Of course I will stay with the stock spare in case I have a problem on the road.

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2007 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

If you start playing with tire sizes you better reinforce the rear track bar at the right side where it connects to the frame rail. Bigger tires will break it right off and then you have a problem. Harder to fix after it breaks. Walt, 53 Hudson.

ivanz62

I agree with this with my 5 1/2" Hudson wheels experience. Speaking of the front, the guys you see driving around with wide rims offset out and wide tires on their pick-up trucks get away with it with power steering and poor steering as a result of moving the tire patch off the kingpin centerline. The normal caster built in gives the effect of "lifting" the car when you steer and the steering return to center is caused by the weight of the car pushing everything back into the straight ahead position. This is the feel that Hudson's are famous for and you shouldn't give up the road feel of for the look of big or wide wheels like "Pimp my Ride". And to put wider wheels on the front the backspace will have to be maintained to miss the suspension

or you'll have wheel spacers and the situation with the kingpin centerline above.

Hope this helps,

Ivan

464Saloon

In doing some more searching on the forum, it looks like up to a 235/75/15 has been put on these cars. I am thinking then a 245/70/15 should go with maybe a little massaging. As for the rear sway bar, that is the first I have heard of that and not sure why that would be.

rambos_ride

464Saloon wrote:

In doing some more searching on the forum, it looks like up to a 235/75/15 has been put on these cars. I am thinking then a 245/70/15 should go with maybe a little massaging. As for the rear sway bar, that is the first I have heard of that and not sure why that would be.

I don't know from experience but common sense would make me think a wider tire on the rear - with the additional stresses of a radial vs. the orginal bias-ply would place an additional stress on the "frame" mounting point - because it's not really a frame it's sheet metal bent and spot welded together...It would be much easier to re-inforce the area first because once it fatigues the repair area will grow exponentially...

464Saloon

I could see if the car was continually used for maximum cornering and the additional grip of the tires transferring the load in place of just sliding. I will look into it but I doubt I will be pushing the car that hard very often.

Hudson Grandpa

464 Saloon.

I'm the one that bought the 54 cpe from Bill A. The car had a big snow tire on the right rear. We are doing brakes. It was a bugger to get off. Guess what. Read what Walts Garage has to say. The rear track bar is busted laying on top of the right rear spring on this car...I'm going with what Bill A recommends in tire size.

464Saloon

I thought it was in this thread but I must have seen it somewhere else. Someone had a formula for the width and height. Here is the kicker. I have been looking at Tire Rack and what is interesting is that the second # 75,70,60 is suppose to be just the height, but if you look at for example a 245/60/15 and a 245/70/15 the 60 series is shorter but it is also wider so something is missing in that formula that I have to get to the bottom of unless someone here knows.

harry54

So Hudson Grandpa..... What size tires does Bill A reccomend ??

Hudson Grandpa

678-15 Bias Ply Remington

464Saloon

With the tire technology available today why would anybody run those other than for show.

harry54

I'm surprised about the Fact that Bill A doesn't reccomend Radials . THanks thou

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2007 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

I had Bias-plies tires on my Hudson Coupe and on my cross country trip it was hell to drive the car through cities, uneven concrete, train tracks, driving in the rain you never knew where the car would go. I installed 215R x75-15 radials and after 80 thousand miles of cross country driving I just replaced with a new set, same brand, only because stopping in the rain from high speed driving was getting a little slippery.

harry54

So Walt, If you had 80,000 on the tires , how many miles on the car in total ?

BJ__TN

464Saloon wrote:

I thought it was in this thread but I must have seen it somewhere else. Someone had a formula for the width and height. Here is the kicker. I have been looking at Tire Rack and what is interesting is that the second # 75,70,60 is suppose to be just the height, but if you look at for example a 245/60/15 and a 245/70/15 the 60 series is shorter but it is also wider so something is missing in that formula that I have to get to the bottom of unless someone here knows.

The 60/70 is the series and refers to the ratio of the height of the sidewall to the tread width, therefor the 60, which is less than the 70 would be shorter. At least that is what I understand.
Bob

51c8Joe

BJ__TN wrote:

The 60/70 is the series and refers to the ratio of the height of the sidewall to the tread width, therefor the 60, which is less than the 70 would be shorter. At least that is what I understand.

Bob

first set of numbers is width at widest point of tire normally inflated in millimeters. Divide this number by 25.4 to obtain width in inches.

second set of numbers is aspect ratio - percentage of tire width in relation to sidewall height. often referred to as "series".

third number set is diameter of wheel rim.

so, divide first number by 25.4. multiply by second number as percentage. multiply result by 2. add wheel diameter for total height of wheel/tire.

235/75R15 -- 235/25.4= 9.25 X 75% = 6.94 X 2 = 13.88 + 15 = 28.88 inch

so you have a tire 9.25 inches wide at widest point, and 28.88 inches tall.

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2007 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

When I Bought The Car From Bill Albright It Had 87,000 Miles On It. It Went Into My Garage For A Complete Rebuild. That Was In 1993 And It Came Out In 1998 As A Car From The Showroom Floor. Found A New Speedometer And Started With 00,000 Miles. Had Bias-ply Tires Which I Drove For 20,000 Miles And Was Hating To Drive It. So On Went Radials 215-75rx15 And The Car Now Has 102,000 Miles So I Put New Tire, Radial, Same Size On It. Rides And Handles Like A Dream. By The End Of The Year It Will Show At Least 115,000 Miles. I Built This Baby To Drive And We Do. Still Has The Same Motor I Rebuilt When It Left My Garage And Still Runs Great. Anyone Want To Follow Me Across This Country, Pacific To Atlantic? Just Make Sure You Can Travel At Least In The High 80's. Walt.

HUDSONNUT

Walt, it's great to hear about your trips and your great car. We hope to talk to you at the Western National and get some suggestions on putting AC on our 50 Super 6.

We put 6K miles on our car last summer and hope to do @ 8 - 9 K this summer and think maybe AC would make the trip a little more comforable this year than last year w/o AC. We'll have to convert to 12volt system before putting the AC - one thing leads to another!

Thanks for your help on solving our heating problem with the plug in the Thermostat housing that you sent us after we got back from the National - it works great!!

See you at the Western Regional.

Hudsonnut

(Tom C)

harry54

Walt, Thanks for the details on the Car... Sounds like a great driver... I just put 225's 75r 15's on my 54 Hornet sedan and luv it... However, is there a reason that you went with the 215's as they are about 1.5 inches shorter the the 710 bias plys... As mentioned in one of the earlier post's , is there an obvious problem with right front tires rubbing on front brake lines ? I know that there are quite a few Club members running the 225's and that is the fist time I had heard of a problem with contacting brake lines... Should I be concerned ? Thanks....

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2007 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

Keep an eye on that right front tire where it can hit the brake line. Also make sure you reinforce that rear track bar at the frame. Just turning corners put a hard strain on the right side. That bar was put there to keep the rear in line when turning and to take the weight off the rear spring shackles. Also the fuel line passes behind that right front tire. I'm making the trip to Mesa, AZ so would like to meet a few Hudson people that have listened to me and thanked me for the info. Walt

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2007 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

You better make sure you carry the same size spare as the tires on your car. Putting a smaller or bigger tire on the front will only affect the steering. If put on the rear while driving straight you can break the spider gears because one axle is trying to turn faster than the other. Bad thing to do.

hudsonguy

harry54 wrote:

Walt, Thanks for the details on the Car... Sounds like a great driver... I just put 225's 75r 15's on my 54 Hornet sedan and luv it... However, is there a reason that you went with the 215's as they are about 1.5 inches shorter the the 710 bias plys... As mentioned in one of the earlier post's , is there an obvious problem with right front tires rubbing on front brake lines ? I know that there are quite a few Club members running the 225's and that is the fist time I had heard of a problem with contacting brake lines... Should I be concerned ? Thanks....

Harry,

I've got 225's on my '49, and I did indeed notice that the right front has been rubbing on my brake lines, along with the fuel return line I've routed alongside them. I'm going to bolt some sort of guard on there, realizing it's got to be rock solid, and not cause any damage to the tire. I'll probably also be a little more careful when turing hard right.

Doug

harry54

Walt, What would you say is the difference in the Speedo Calibration for the 215's vs 710' s? 5 mph at 65 ?

hudsondad

hudsonguy wrote:

Harry,

I've got 225's on my '49, and I did indeed notice that the right front has been rubbing on my brake lines, along with the fuel return line I've routed alongside them. I'm going to bolt some sort of guard on there, realizing it's got to be rock solid, and not cause any damage to the tire. I'll probably also be a little more careful when turing hard right.

Doug

I've been running 225's on my wasp for several years and redid the brakes about a year and a half ago. I didn't notice any rubbing at that time when I replaced the original hoses. I want to check for this when I get it out this Spring. Wasn't someone talking about putting 245's on a while back? I have a devil of a time getting the 225's off the rear now.

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2007 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

215 is the replacement for 710 by all tire charts. I saw no difference in my miles per hour. Remember a speedometer cable turns 1,000 times at 60 miles per hour. I always check with mile post signs that start at o miles and end at 5 miles. There are alot of these check points across this country. When I installed the 2.73 gear ratio in my car, yes, it's a DANA spicer gear set, i was off 6 MPH. Took the car to a speedometer shop and they installed a small unit on the trans and my cable to it. Now at 60 i'm doing 60.

464Saloon

51c8Joe wrote:

first set of numbers is width at widest point of tire normally inflated in millimeters. Divide this number by 25.4 to obtain width in inches.

second set of numbers is aspect ratio - percentage of tire width in relation to sidewall height. often referred to as "series".

third number set is diameter of wheel rim.

so, divide first number by 25.4. multiply by second number as percentage. multiply result by 2. add wheel diameter for total height of wheel/tire.

235/75R15 -- 235/25.4= 9.25 X 75% = 6.94 X 2 = 13.88 + 15 = 28.88 inch

so you have a tire 9.25 inches wide at widest point, and 28.88 inches tall.

What gets a little confusing is that studying all the spec info on Tire Racks website, is that when you keep the first number, for example 225 but you change the second number for example 75 to 70, the diameter is indeed shorter but the width is slightly wider. Same with a 60 series, shorter still and even wider, so the aspect ratio must have something to do with width also, just not sure how it is figured in using the formula. The more I look at it all the better a 235/70/15 is looking. Wish you could get bigger tires in these cars as you have so much more to choose from. I am not all that excited about what is available in 75 and 70 series.

hudsondad

I think stepdowns look better with taller tires and the 215's are a little short, whether they're the correct replacement or not. The 225's are a definite improvement in the stance, and I'd go with 235's, but don't think they'd fit in the rear wheelwell. Maybe have to disconnect the shocks.

Dave53-7C

hudsondad wrote:

I think stepdowns look better with taller tires and the 215's are a little short, whether they're the correct replacement or not. The 225's are a definite improvement in the stance, and I'd go with 235's, but don't think they'd fit in the rear wheelwell. Maybe have to disconnect the shocks.

<

And keep the kid out of the back seat.

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2007 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

Just wait till they get a flat rear tire in the middle of the night and on a lonely road, we will all hear the SCREAMS. If car has to be jacked up with a bumper jack and schock disconnected, I would never get under that car. Walt.

464Saloon

Well maybe my car is different but I put a 235/75/15 up in the back that came off my 51 Ford PU. Of course the bolt pattern wasn't the same but I got it up in the well and had the bolt pattern been the same it would have gone on. That is one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that a 235/70/15 would make a nice all around tire. A little bigger and wider that stock, but not too much.

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