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In this Discussion
- 54SuperWasp February 7
- Clutch guy February 8
- ESSX28-1 January 29
- Geoff C., N.Z. February 4
- hudsontech January 22
- Jon B January 20
- Ken U-Tx February 8
- pierre from france February 8
- SuperDave February 5
- Tallent R February 8
- Terraplane33 February 8
Pierre from France (Hudson 49) needs help! Transmission problem.
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Hi Guys, this is Michel ( 54Superwasp) and I'm writing on behalf of our forum friend Pierre from France who sent me an e-mail in French and asking me to translate it in English. I hope you will be able to understand the problem:
Pierre;
''I’ve just put back the motor/transmission unit in the car. But I have a transmission problem , even with a new clutch and a new clutch bearing.
I can’t turn the driveshaft by hand, even in neutral.
I ‘ve noticed also that the clutch pedal is soft, and by the same time noticed too that the clutch bearing does not push the ‘’3 fingers’’ on the spring, and so, there is no spring response and, once pushed forward, the clutch bearing does not come back…
So, I took apart the transmisson, and noticed that, when I put the mecanism in place with the disk on the flywheel, the ‘’3 fingers’’ are on a great tension towards the clutch bearing ( and I presume this is normal) but the problem is that, when I begin to tight all the bolts of the mecanism, now, the fingers expand completely and I think this is not normal. Following that, there is a lack of pressure of the clutch bearing on the disk…''
Here are the pictures he sent me if it can help.
Pierre sent also a little video , I hope you will be able to see it:
Thanks everybody. I will follow this thread and send him all the translation needed.
Michel
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Hi Michel, Hope this helps
If you used a new cork disc, it's very possible that the disc is too thick. I don't recall the maximum thickness, but it's in the mechanical proceedure manual. Maybe 1/4"? When the assembly is all tightened ready to install the throwout bearing. the three fingers should measure 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" from the top of the round hole that holds the throwout bearing. if it measures more than 1- 1/2" the throwout will not release the clutch. a good description in the 48-49 mechnical procxcedure manual. I recently had the same problem with my 49 and found that useing two gaskets gave me 1-3/8" which is perfect. There are other things to check but I bet your disc is a bit too thick. It's cerrtainly not fun to have to do it over again! I know from experience. It's happend to me twice in the last thirty some years. You would think I would Learn TO CHECK IT BEFORE ASSEMBLY.. Good Luck!
Dave W. Florida -
I agree, the plate is too thick. The correct thickness overall of the plate is .1875" for a heat treated cork disc. The gasket should be 1/32" thick also.If you're stuck in a hole, stop digging.
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Wow guys, you are very fast! I wrote this thread not even 1 hour ago! Since it's 2:00am in France, ( 6 hours difference from Eastern Standard time in US and Canada) I will have time to translate the answers to him. Thank you very much again Dave and Geoff. I'm sure he will be happy! Michel
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Awaken him! Hudsons are much more important than sleep!
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Oh John, I was just completing the translation when I happened to see your comment. I laughed so much. I will add it to his e-mail. I am so proud of our Hudson community! Michel
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Hello guys
I woke up lol and really very pleased with your answers fast, thanks to all for your help. ......And promised, I sleep more as long as the Hudson will not be... mdr -
If you need a shop manual, Pierre, there's one in the online library (link below my signature. Look in 1948-1954 manuals.
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN -
Pierre. The first thing to check is the pressure plate. Since you have already removed the transmission,check the finger heights. These can be NO MORE than .030 variation from one another-[a total of no more than .030] The clutch disc can be .225 and work just fine-IF the pressure plate is set-up correctly. I don't know where the .01875 comes from. the shop manual even describes over .200. When you use 2 gaskets,you are bringing the fingers up towards the top of the cover. This will work BUT as the disc wears the pressure it delivers will be less. The p/pl. needs to be checked thoroughly,as well as the cross-shaft bushings in the bell-housing. This is something that gets neglected most every time. These are usually gone and if they aren't gone,are badly worn,subsequently causing the clutch to lack proper adjustment to dis-engage. Hope this helps, Doug
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I'm curious about the statement : "I can’t turn the driveshaft by hand, even in neutral"
Is this a result of translation or a symptom we should think about. I realise if the wheels are on the ground the shaft wont turn but what if he's talking of something else?
Roger :)]Retired Tech. -
Good point Roger
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I took the liberty of translating Doug's reply to Pierre. I also converted the Standard measurements to metric. I hope no one is bothered by this.. Kenneth
Pierre. La première chose à vérifier est la plateau de pression. Puisque vous avez déjà supprimé la transmission, vérifiez les hauteurs des doigts (leviers d'embrayage). Ceux-ci peuvent être pas plus de 0.030 inch ( 0.75mm) variation par rapport à l'autre, [un total de pas plus de 0,030inch (0.75mm)]. Le disque d'embrayage peut être 0.225 inch ( 4,5mm) et fonctionnent très bien-SI la plaque de pression est mis en place correctement. Je ne sais pas d'où vient le 0,01875 inch. Le manuel d'atelier décrit même sur .200. Lorsque vous utilisez 2 joints, vous apportez les doigts vers le haut du couvercle. Il fonctionne, mais que le disque d'embrayage s'use, elle fournira moins de pression et puis l'embrayage risque de glisser. Le plateau de pression doit être vérifié à fond, ainsi que les coussinets inter-arbres dans la cloche. Ceux-ci sont généralement épuisés et si elles ne sont pas disparu, sont très usées, causant par la suite à l'ajustement de l'embrayage manque approprié pour désengager. J'espère que cela vous aide, Doug
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Hello
Tillant, it is a symptom...I'will try to explain
.at a standstill, the front drive shaft is fixed, and the rear drive shaft is free?
Here the two shafts turn sets
I have the manual... in English, not very easy for a beginner in this language, lol
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Pierre, oui, lorsque l'embrayage est engagé l'arbre de transmission avant est impossible de tourner à la main, mais l'arrière doit tourner facilement si les pneus arrière sont sur le sol pas, et les freins sont relâchés.
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@Ken: I don't know how you do it but, I think you are better in French than I am, and my first language is French! I'm glad if you can help too.
@Roger: The translation was good on this one. In fact, it was the easiest one for me. He really said he could not turn the drive-shaft by hand. But, as you said, dont know if it was with the wheels on the ground so, I will ask Pierre from here:
@Pierre de France: Pierre, Roger voulait savoir, lorsque tu disais que tu ne pouvais tourner l'arbre de transmission à la main, même au neutre, est-ce que les roues touchaient à terre?
Michel -
Hello Michel
Pourquoi les roues? Je m'exprime mal, en fait la boite de vitesse est demontee, et si je tiens au point mort , l'arbre avant , a l'arriere il doit pouvoir tourner librement. non? E t la c est pas le cas Et quand je dit arbre, en fait se sont les demi-arbres sur la boite
merci Michel
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Allô Pierre, il se demandait si tu avais essayé de tourner l'arbre pendant que les roues touchaient à terre... C'est déjà arrivé...Je vais expliquer alors que la boîte est démontée.
@Roger: OK, the gear box was opened ( so, not on the car) as he was trying to turn the transmission shaft ( I hope I'm correct here).
@Ken: Could you check my translation please?
Michel -
Ah, Michel - you know there is a big difference between "Canadian" french and French french. The late Terraplane Kelly took some college courses - one of which was French. European vernacular (??) He took a trip on his motorcycle into Quebec - he showed up in my driveway in Maine a few days later disgusted as hell - he said "Dumb Canadians couldn't understand a word I said in the French I learned in the college course" LOL
Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN -
Well if the transmission is out of the car and its full of cold grease / oil . And was in low gear he may not have been able to turn it very easily. If it happens to be an overdrive unit and is in overdrive it "Wont" or rather CAN NOT turn backwards but would go the regular rotation. Other than that I dont know what to say with the info given,
RogerRetired Tech. -
As to why he can't turn the output shaft by hand, we are grasping at straws, and there aren't enough straws offered.......
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Michael, c'est bien.
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@Alex: For me, French from France would compare to English from England for you. And there is slang in both language. On everyday conversation, it's quite easy as long as we can open our ears and can catch the main idea. For example: We all know what the word Yes! means. But, some people would hear the word Yeah or Yep! and suddenly, they would be completely lost...
@Pierre: Roger suggère que, si la transmission est pleine de graisse ou huile froide et qu'elle est à basse vitesse, tu ne pourrais tourner l'arbre facilement. Ou bien, si tu as l'option ''overdrive'' ( surmultiplication), et qu'elle est engagée, elle ne pourra pas tourner ou ne reviendra pas en arrière pour une rotation régulière. On voudrait encore plus de détails pour t'aider...
Michel
P.S. Thanks again guys! -
Merci Michel
je vais faire quelques photos pour essayer d'expliquer le probleme demain. En premier lieu je n'ai pas l'overdrive, Hier j'ai constate quelque chose , j'ai reussi a faire tourner l'axe arriere sans faire tourner l'axe avant
Au depart je n'ai rien demonter de la boite elle meme, seulement les pieces externes pour remplacer les joints , la cloche avant , le croisillon , et la piece apres le croisillon , je ne sais comment l'appeler, ah si j'ai trouve sur le schema de la boite dans le manuel, le "speedometer gear housing"
Alors voila , cette piece est maintenue par trois visses , si je les desserres de quelques tours , ca fonctionne, si je resserre ca bloque de nouveau , Par ailleurs derriere cette piece il y a un roulement , enfile sur l'axe, piece n° 24, je pense que cet roulement a glisse sur l'axe vers l'exterieur, et que lorsque je serre la piece , elle s"appuie sur le roulement mal loge, et repousse l'axe vers l'interieur , le bloquant ainsi .
Voila j'espere que tu comprends , mais demain je ferai une video explicite que je t'enverrai
Pierrot -
Pierre will take some more pictures and try to explain the problem tomorrow. First of all, he does not have overdrive. Yesterday he was able to turn the back driving-shaft ( he had the word ''axle'' here)without turnig the front one. At first, he had not taken all the transmission appart, only the external pieces to replace the seals, the front ''bell cover?'' ( the word in French was ''cloche''), the ''croisillon'' ( don't know what this word means) and the part after it, called the speedometer gear housing. This part is maintaned by 3 bolts. if he unbolts these a little bit, it works, but if he bolts it again, it blocks. behind this part, there is a bearing, on the ''axle'' part number 24 as per the manual. He thinks this bearing went of his normal place trough the exterior, and when he bolts the part, this one steps on the bearing that is not at the right place, so, it push the ''axle'' at the exterior. And it blocks.
A video should come tomorrow...
@Ken: Look at this and try to correct what I was not able to translate. It's quite too technical for me...Michel -
Has he had the transmission apart? If he has,he must be certain that he did not drop one of the roller bearings in the front input shaft. this is where the main shaft rides. If that is OK,then we need to see pictures of the trans with the top removed.
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Michel, I think Pierre was putting the speedometer gear housing back on without a gasket, and it was pushing the rear mainshaft bearing thrust washer into the rear mainshaft bearing when he tightened the bolts, causing the bearing to get clamped. With the gasket the speedometer gear housing cannot clamp the thrust washer and bearing. And Doug is correct, if the roller bearing has dislodged, tightening the speedometer housing bolts can be pushing the mainshaft components onto the roller, locking it up.
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Doug, Pierre took the bellhousing, front gear bearing retainer and the rear speedometer housing off to change the oil seals.
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Opening a transmission, just a little, is in the very least, like opening a can of worms.....At the very worse it is like opening Pandora's Box, if you don't know what you are doing
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Well, if you look,the rear snap-ring should go flush down into the groove at the back. The rear housing captures only the snap ring. It appears that it is NOT seated into the rear which can only be one thing. It has dropped one of the rollers in the front. If the rear housing is put back on and tightened,does the front input shaft turn/.,if it doesn't,this tells you the 2 shafts are pinned against one another and is causing it to lock up. At this point you will need to remove the bell-housing and both shift shaft rods and pull it apart.
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I noticed he turned the rear shaft and the front shaft was still. Then he tightened the screws and you could see the front shaft turn with the whole assembly. Sounds like Clutch guy is on to something ,
RogerRetired Tech. -
@Ken: I think I'll let you do the translation for this one. But I'll try it...
@Pierre; Il semble que Clutch guy a trouvé quelque chose, en rapport avec le jonc ( snap-ring) qui devrait être à ras dans la rainure à l'arrière. Le carter arrière ne capte seulement que le jonc. Il appert qu'il ne soit pas bien bien assis à l'arrière, ce qui ne signifie qu'une chose. (Pour la prochaine phrase, je suis moins certain de la traduction): Cela a fait descendre un des roulements à l'avant.si le carter arrière est remis en place et boulonné, est-ce que l'arbre avant tourne/..s'il ne tourne pas, cela vous dit que les 2 arbres sont coincés un sur l'autre et que cela le fait barrer. À ce moment, il te faudra enlever le carter d'embrayage et les deux arbres de commandes et les défaire. Michel
Thanks Clutch guy and Roger. -
Merci Michel et remercie chaleureusement guy et Roger pour moi et pour leur aide
Maintenant un detail, pour la phrase dont yu n'est pas sur "s'il ne tourne pas ne serait pas plutot ..."si il tourne" car c 'est le cas , une fois le carter arriere ressere les deux arbres tournent ensembles , coinces
Merci pour cette petite precision avant que je ne demonte.....quelle galere lol -
@Roger & Clutch guy, Pierre wants to warmly thank you for your help. From what I translated, he wants to be sure of a detail: he said that when the rear housing is put back on and tightened, the front input shaft turns, and the two shafts turn together too.
Does this give you more info? Michel -
Well the info it gives me is that it should not do that. The rear shaft should not push on the front shaft so hard it can turn it .What Clutch Guy sugested was one of the small needle / roller bearings fell out of place.
I made a small drawing to maybe help show what may have happened. Item K3-3 in the exploded view represents the small rollers.
I hope this helps , may not be what has happened but fits the symptoms,
Roger
hudson transmission closeup 001 (1280x929).jpg1280 x 929 - 158K
hudson 3 speed 001 (1280x826).jpg1280 x 826 - 254KRetired Tech. -
Thanks Roger, when they say a picture's worth a thousand words... That sketch of yours helped me a lot to understand the problem that may have occured here. I will tell Pierre right away. Michel
@Pierre: Selon les infos reçues de ta part, cela n'aurait pas dû se produire ainsi. Clutch guy suggérait qu'il se pourrait qu'un petit roulement se soit glissé tel que le dessin de Roger le démontre. À vérifier. Peut-être n'est-ce pas cela qui est arrivé, mais cela correspond aux symptômes dont tu nous a fait part. Bonne chance! Michel -
Yeah ,talking was getting us no place fast,
RogerRetired Tech. -
Michel
Cest bien cela , je viens de trouver 2 petits rouleaux au fond , la je suis dans la merde lol , mdr
Peut les remettre en place en demontant, ou faut il changer la piece?, Combien de rouleaux doit il y avoir?
Merci -
Pierre, Il devrait y avoir seize rouleaux.
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Eureka guys! With the design provided, Pierre went to look back at it and found 2 rollers and said he was now in deep doo-doo. (lol) he wants to know now if he can put it back in place or if he has to change the whole part,,He also asked how many there was, but Ken already answered it (16). Thanks Ken.
Looks were near the end. Michel -
Pierre, vous pouvez remplacer les rouleaux, s' ils ne sont pas endommagés. Remettez-les dans l'arbre avant avec un peu de graisse roulement de roue, de sorte qu'ils ne tombent pas lorsque vous retournez l' arbre avant a la boîte de vitesses.
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If he has them all tell him to put some heavy grease on them to hold them in place till it goes back together again,
RogerRetired Tech. -
Thats what I said in French, Roger: "Remettez-les dans l'arbre avant avec un peu de graisse roulement de roue, de sorte qu'ils ne tombent pas...."
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Sorry Ken , its all Greek to me .. .. .. :DRetired Tech.
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@Roger: I think Pierre just got himself a Chinese puzzle...
Pierre sent me these pics and told me he took all the parts off... I have to admit he is very courageous cause it's the first time he does that. He wants to know if there is any special thing he should be aware of? He wanted to know where to put back the rollers but Ken and Roger already answered. I think it would have been simpler to put them back without taking all the rest...
@ Pierre: T'es vraiment courageux. Je crois que tu n'avais qu'à replacer les roulements à leur place, sans plus. Toutefois, avec tout ce que j'ai vu de toi, je crois que tu pourras remettre tout en place. Michel
P1020414.jpg1024 x 768 - 89K
P1020415.jpg1024 x 768 - 87K
P1020416.jpg1024 x 768 - 75K
P1020417.jpg1024 x 768 - 121K -
Is Pierre in the club and able to access Alex's library ? If so maybe looking at a service manual my be of some help ?
RogerRetired Tech. -
Yes he is and I think he has access to a manual, but since the manual is in English, it's not easy for him. That's why I'm trying to help the best I can. I'm glad to have you and all the others on this topic. Michel
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Pierre, voulez-vous une boîte de vitesses avec surmultipliée??? Beaucoup mieux pour le 100-120 km / h en voiture! David Bergamin est livré avec un moteur à Zurich. et si vous obtenez un overdrive de Doug Wildrick, il peut être livré plus bas prix avec le moteur de David.
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Pierre, Do you want a gearbox with overdrive??? Much better for the 100-120 km / h car! David Bergamin is getting an engine to Zurich. and if you get an overdrive (from?) Doug Wildrick, it can be delivered at the lowest price together with David's engine.Dave Y
New Zealand -
I think this would solve is problem right away, plus it would be better for the highway. Hope he will see this message asap. Thanks, Michel.
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I wrote Pierre and told him about it. He wrote me back and he probably would be interested. David Bergamin's home is less than 100 miles from his I think. He have ordered a wiring harness from YNZ but he said he would have to tell them to modify it for overdrive. I will write Doug about it and send the info to Pierre. Thanks all, Michel
