ClassicCar

Richie

In reading an old post from Jan 2011 about 308 block identification, I am making an assumption about my 53 Hornet 308 block. I have a casting number under my dist that is L95 and under that is a #5325000 and CWC under that. From reading the old post I think these numbers transulate into- date= Dec 9 1955 and the block number 5325000 means it is probably a 55 block. The dipstick is at the front edge of the starter. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong. Check my pic please.
I measured the thickness of the head and found it to be screwed up I think. The end towards the firewall is 1.942 on both driver side and pass side. The front end near the thermostat housing is 1.928 on both pass and driver sides. I am confused how this could happen. I think the most you can take off of a 2'' head is .060 which would leave 1.940. I'm in trouble, right !! Need a new head ?? Thanks in advance. Richie.

Tallent R

The differance from front to back sounds like a poor job of machine work is all. Probably not a big deal in itself if the face is flat from front to back / left to right. Can be checked by a machineist straight edge. However it does sound like its past the stated limits they like to stay within,
Roger

oldhudsons

one of Smokey Yunick's cheating "coup de gras" was to mill the block; it was easy & quick for inspectors to "mike" the thickness of a head to see if it had been milled but not the block itself, LOL!!!
"where there's a will, there's a way"!

Richie

Hi Roger, I will have the shop check it but don't think I can have it milled any further so I hope it is flat.
Oldhudsons, I heard some good stories about Smokey also. He would remove the ring gear from a flywheel and drill deep holes all the way around it to lighten it and re install the ring gear. He was a sharp guy. Richie.

SuperDave

The compression ratio (cylinder volume) will be different from front to rear. Will it make enought difference to notice ? I haven't a clue.

Richie

SuperDave, I think you are right and I have no idea what affect it will have. I can't believe a machine shop could do this kind of work. I'll probably have to buy a new head.Richie.

Tallent R

Cinsidering how easy it should be to find a good head for that it may not be worth the trouble messing with the old one,
Roger

bigboy308

I have seen quite a few heads that were different "thicknesses" from end-to*end. The "machine" shops in our small town didn't use a milling machine, but had a "surfacing" table. Large steel table w/ a circular stone to surface the heads.

It was pretty easy to surface a cylinder head to different thicknesses at the ends. A little extra pressure and the head was surfaced different at each end.

Tallent R

Like I said above my big concern would be how flat it was ,
Roger

Richie

Bigboy308, this car came from CA, I have no idea about the shops out there or their quality. I have used the local shop near by and had excellent results. Richie.

Richie

Roger, do you have a good head you want to part with ?? Richie.

Ken U-Tx

Your block was cast on December 9, 1955, so it was for the '56 model year, and should have hydraulic lifters.

Richie

Thanks Ken, I'll be taking the engine apart next week. Richie.

Tallent R

I dont think so right now ,I will look though.
Roger

faustmb

Richie, I might have one. I'll check and let you know.

Matt

Richie

Thanks guys. Richie.

Richie

Ken U-Tx, Do the hydraulic lifters still have adjusting nuts like to solid lifters? The lifters in my L95 casting number block have adjusting nuts. Thanks, Richie.

Ken U-Tx

Ahh, so yours still has, or was converted back to solid lifters then. No, the hydraulic lifters has a spring loaded piston where the adjuster nut would be on the mechanical lifters.

TwinH

Hydraulics.

Richie

Thanks TwinH, my lifters definately don't look like those. Can you put solid lifters on a hydraulic cam ?? Or someone had to change the cam to a solid lifter cam ? Thanks, Richie.

dougson

1955 Hash's had solid lifters and (presumably) the old standard cam (344). '56 had hydraulic lifters and a "redesigned" and "long dwell" version of the '54 flat top., 260 deg duration, .366 lift. I would not use stock solids on this cam. Remove the cam and verify the casting number. There appears to have been several cams utilized by the 308, I've seen reference to about six or so casting numbers. At one time there was an attempt on this site to catalog all the numbers and characteristics.

Richie

Dougson, I should have the engine out later this week and will post the cam number here. My parts book only goes to 1954 but I'll check that first thing. Thanks, Richie.

Ken U-Tx

Be careful! Hudson had used up some of those 309742 cams by having them reground to the 56 hydraulic specs. Thus you will see the 309742 cast into them, but they have to be checked for the cam duration and lift to verify what they are ground to.

Richie

Ken, I have solid lifters and the car ran really good for about a week so I would think the cam is a solid lifter cam. I'll see what happens when I get it apart. It's 26 degrees this morning and no heat in the garage so I'll wait a day or so before working on it. Thanks. Richie.

dougson

My '56 cam is a "309742" casting, introduced in '54 as the "Flat top 7X", but read '56 factory promotion material, these cams were "redesigned" as the "long dwell" hydraulic cam. I believe that all '56 Hornets used this cam. The '56 308 had the highest HP rating (175) of any production 308.

Richie

Roger, Matt, any luck with finding a head for my 308 ? Thanks. Richie.

Tallent R

Richie the best bet I have looks like an alluminium 308 head that shows 20 tho removed. So it has room to be cleaned up if needed ,and probably should be .There is another one with 15 tho removed #300006 part number but its not in the book. I think its a 308 head - not positive. Neither one shows much water jacket damage inside . These are on the shelf ,I may have an iron one on a motor some place in the warehouse,
Roger

Richie

Roger, I want to stay with an iron head, no hurry as it will be a month or so before I'll need it. Thanks Roger. Richie.

Tallent R

I may have a 262 head that would fit. Give higher compresion though.
Roger

Richie

Roger, would it need to be re-surfaced and if so would it create blown head gasket problems? Has it been re-surfaced already? I only want to do this one time, if you think it will work OK that's fine with me. I want to be like Walt and drive across country and not worry about anything. I know my way around the muscle cars of the sixties pretty good but I'm learning as I go about the 308 flathead. Thanks Roger. Richie.

Tallent R

Any I have would need to be checked because I dont have proper equipment to declare one straight. I can measure it for how many times its been milled. Those that I listed above were 15 & 20 thousand's less than the 2" factory new measurement. You can go to at least 60. Although it my looking thru the pile I found one that had 75 off. I will say however that was a 262 head I took off a 1954 ,308 motor with a blown gasket.
I would think if you were going to use any old head it at least needs to be checked with a machinist straight edge. If it were me I would have just a little taken off to get a nice clean face.
I can understand how the Hudson is different than what you may have been used to. They didnt realy pay attention to how everyone else did things. They had thier own way to get it done ,put a lot of engineering into the cars. The Stepdown cars look massive just like thier cometitors at the time. Yet weighed much less and were stronger and quieter.

Richie

Roger, I will have whatever head I get surfaced. I would like to have a 308 head and surface it, that way I wouldn't have too much compression, as a 262 head might be too much compression after surfacing it. I appreciate your time checking the heads Roger. Thanks. Richie.

Tallent R

I agree ,used to be more compession was better but with todays crapgas I dont know anymore,
Roger

RL Chilton

Richie-

I'm probably not the one to comment, but I don't believe you can get "too much compression" from a flathead. If you have a higher compression, and your engine pings, you just have to have a higher octane to eliminate the ping, i.e., better quality combustibles. I am currently having a hopped up 308 built which is utilizing a milled 262 head and the 7x grinding. Honestly, with a flathead, I don't believe you could get the compression up high enough to do damage like blow head gaskets, which would be more operator error in the intstallation than in the high compression. It's not like you are going to be up in the 12:1 range, no matter what you do. Like I said, I'm not the one to really comment, but without some serious modification, I'm not even sure you could much above the 9 or 9.5:1 range on a 308.

Would like to hear someone like Ken-U-Tex's comments on the matter.

Tallent R

The engine pinging and driveability is more what I was thinking you here guys talk about. Like you say a gasket poorly installed will blow out no matter what. l there are much better gaskets available now.,
Roger

faustmb

Richie, I have a 54 308 head but I haven't had time to inspect if yet. The engine hasn't run in a long time so I don't know much about it. Per the PO, ran when parked lol. I'll try to put it on the bench tonight.

Richie

Thanks Matt, no hurry. Will any year head work OK on my 55 block ??

Richie

Russell, what you said makes sense and as I said earlier I'm still learning what makes these 308's tick. I know from the old days high compression causes spark knock or ping (pre-ignition) that can burn pistons. Retarding your timing defeats the purpose, so next option is as you say premium fuel. For the most part around here premium is around $4.00 per gal. I would rather pay $3.14 for regular,(Being an old retired codger). I will be happy with a little boost in compression by way of taking just enough material off to make the head level. I like hearing about hopped up 308's and I may try building one of those down the road. The 308 I'm rebuilding now is going to be our cross country, go anywhere car. I appreciate your thoughts Russell and would like to hear more about your 308 build. Richie.

Richie

Roger, you are thinking about the same way I'm thinking. I just want a good dependable car. I really don't car if it is a little slow as long as it doesn't give me any problems 1000 miles from home. At a later date I would like to build a race type 308 and put it in my Pacemaker Brougham and have some fun with it. Richie.

RL Chilton

Richie-

If you mill your head, say .040 to .050, are you going to boost your compression? Sure you are. Is it going to be a noticeable difference? Probably not, and certainly not while "everyday-type-of-driving". Gotta remember that a flathead is not like an OHV engine, in that your combustion chamber is just so much larger on a flathead, hence the difficulty in really upping the compression.

Keep in mind there are more economical means of boosting HP, or just getting a little more oomph out of a basically stock engine. For example, dual exhaust is good for as much as 20HP right out of the box, so to speak. That's a significant boost for a little effort on your part, time-wise or money-wise.

Richie

The engine is out, finished taking it out about 7:30 this evening. Now the fun begins, I'll take it completely apart Monday and find out what cam is in it. It really looks like (don't laugh) it was bored .060 over and they put in .030 over pistons. Lots of room between the piston and wall. I'll measure the bore and pistons Monday. That L95 under the dist does mean it is a 55 block, Right?? Richie.

Richie

Good points Russell, I am just a little concerned about blowing head gaskets. From what I've read I thought it is an on going issue with head gaskets. My 51 P/M blew a head gasket last year and the 53 Hornet I'm working on now had a blown head gasket. I just heard a lot about blown headgaskets and believed it was a common problem. Maybe it's not that common any more with the newer head gaskets available today. Maybe I'm overly cautious and don't need to be !! Anyway, I'm going to enjoy building this engine and learn as much as possible while doing it. Thanks Russell. Richie.

Oldfarmer1947gmailcom

Richie: Blown head gaskets are the result of many different factors. In the past the primary problem creating the failures was the materials used to manufacture the headgaskets. Couple this built in problem with headbolt torque inconsistancies and cooling problems contributed to the failures that faded memories and antidoctal stories bring out today. Today you are fortunate to have the opportunity to use a BEST gasket with your new engine. Couple this with proper assembly and your engine will be prepared for the reliable use you are envisoning. The sealing charcteristics of the new head gasket far out shines all previous attempts to over come the short comings of available materials. Wishing you well in your overhaul.

Richie

Oldfarmer, that is good news to my ears. Maybe I can "not" worry so much now. I thank you for commenting. Richie.

Tallent R

I would not worry about any pinging - Ive never had one of mine ping . Its realy hard to get a Hudson motor to ping. As far as the worry about a blown gasket on the head -as stated the better gaskets make a differance. And make sure to use new grade #8 washers under the head bolts. I think the washers are as impartant as the bolts.
And if it does ever blow a gasket Richie its not like a V-8 . It just a flat piece of metal you unbolt and re-install. You dont mess with the exhaust or manifold or any of that stuff,
Roger

Richie

Roger, I was always concerned about pinging in the old days, nothing good came from pinging. You are right about Hudsons not pinging, the more I thought about it, I realized none of mine ever pinged. I read somewhere that in the old days the mechanics would put a car in third gear at 10 or 12 mph and floor it, if it didn't ping, advance the timing until it did ping and then back off a tad. I think the Hudson engines must have been just about bullet proof back in the day. Richie.

Tallent R

How do you think they got away with the "Drivemaster" setup wich started the car out in 2nd gear ? Lots of low end Umph,
Roger

Richie

Yup, Roger, my 51 ugly Pacemaker has supermatic drive and it never has pinged. I tried the supermatic drive once when I first got the car and it actually worked, what a scary thing it is though. I have since taken some of it off to make working on the engine a bit easier. Richie.

Tallent R

Ill give you that , it is in the way of a few things . Quite a feat of engineering though if you think about it. They took a manual transmission and made it shift itself -and work the clutch !
Basicly a semi-automatic
Roger

ClassicCar

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

We'd love to hear from you! info@classiccar.com