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Studs vs Bolts for cylinder head
  • walts garage-53
    Posts: 1,470Platinum Member
    Use studs on a Hudson and after 15 or 20 thousand miles watch what you have to do to remove the head. Use bolts and just lift it off. Walt.
  • Ken U-Tx
    Posts: 1,104Platinum Member
    Walt's point here is that the studs, with the nuts removed, will make it nearly impossible to lift the head off the block. The studs have to come out of the block in most cases to get the head off. The key is to make sure the upper thread of the studs you use stick up high enough above the block to be able to get a couple of nuts on them so you can "jam" the nuts and then use a wrench to remove the studs from the block. This is why using the white Teflon or PTFE thread sealant on the coarse bottom threads that go into the block is necessary. The PTFE thread sealant, in addition to sealing the coolant into the block, it also acts as an anti seize. Using regular thread anti-seize has not worked to seal the block for me. Coolant seeped and bubbled up the studs, filled the spark plug wells, etc.....,another thing you will find is that the holes for the studs or head bolts in the head get progressively oversize towards the ends. This is necessary because the head lengthens several thousandths of an inch when it reaches operating temp, thus the need for the clearance around the studs/ bolts to allow for the "creep".
    A funny story I have to share: Years ago, I got a nice steel 308 "H-145 Premium Fuel Only" head from Buzz Stahl, with Pete Booz's help. It had the original 7/16" sized holes. I was to put it on my '56 308 with the 1/2" studs. I was younger and dumber then.....So I simply drilled all the holes in this head to a bit over 1/2". I put the studs in the block, only to find the head wouldn't drop over them.......because the studs with the factory drilled and tapped block holes were not perfectly perpendicular to the block deck. It doesn't take much angular deviation to cause that issue , since the studs stick up at least 3 " from the block deck. So......I took the studs back out, laid the head back down over the holes and then threaded the studs in with the two jam nuts, one at a time. Got them all in, but it was a bit tight in the head holes. I put the nuts on and torqued them to specs in the proper sequence. I re torqued them once hot and again cold. In spite of this I noticed coolant seeping along the edges of the gasket. Later on, I found out the holes in the head were supposed to be progressively over sized towards the end rows of holes. The 3 center rows (3 holes across ) were just a bit over 1/2", the next rows opposite the the center rows were about 0.031" over, or a 17/32" drill, and the last two end rows were about 0.046" over or 35/64" drill. After re-drilling these holes in the head on a Bridgeport mill for perpendicularity, and exact location, the studs were a lot easier to thread into the block after laying the head down. With the PTFE thread sealant, and these progressively larger holes , I had no more coolant seepage issues. Just thought I'd share this story.
  • Uncle JoshUncle Josh
    Posts: 1,860Platinum Member
    Bolts work great on a splasher too. 47 Pickup driven almost every day in season and no problems.
    212 Head Bolts.JPG
    640 x 480 - 58K
  • KdancyKdancy
    Posts: 1,062Platinum Member
    Note from Rudy Bennett-
    Ken-u-Tex is right on, We have been doing the same over the past 40 years or so and it has worked just fine ( you dont have to drill out the holes in our head or Clifford head as they are big enough already)
    A word of Caution,some of the iron heads 232-262-308 have porous castings in the bolt holes and we have seen some to be ruined because drilling the holes a little larger will open them up and water will leak around the bolts or studs.
  • SuperDaveSuperDave
    Posts: 2,377Platinum Member
    If you have studs , need to remove the head and the engine is still running, Remove the nuts and start it up. Works on Model a Fords.. LOL
  • RL ChiltonRL Chilton
    Posts: 3,458Platinum Member
    If you have studs , need to remove the head and the engine is still running, Remove the nuts and start it up. Works on Model a Fords.. LOL


    WHATT???
  • Tallent RTallent R
    Posts: 1,576Platinum Member
    Old timers way of popping a stuck head gasket loose .. .. ..
    Roger
    Retired Tech.
  • RL ChiltonRL Chilton
    Posts: 3,458Platinum Member
    O.k., that's what I thought . . . but, I think that's not the brightest idea I've heard in a while.
  • SuperDaveSuperDave
    Posts: 2,377Platinum Member
    Why not? all it does is pop the gasket loose. It won't "Fly off" LOL. Like Roger said.. it's an old method been used for generations. Beats trying to wedge something under the head and damage something that is critical. I have tried using lifting rings screwed into the spark plug holes. Lifted the engine transmission and all and the darned things still wouldn't budge. There are hole saws made for going over studs but i never had any and they would be expensive I would imagine.
  • Tallent RTallent R
    Posts: 1,576Platinum Member
    My dad told me he once saw someone saw an alloy head in half in an effort to remove it. I dont recall if it was a succsess .. .. ..
    I remember reading somplace a little tool you can make if you have a alloy head that has corroded to the studs.
    He made a small hole saw out of thinwall stainless steel tube that just fit over the stud. Filed teeth into the bottom of the tube and slowly drilled the gap clear around the studs
    Dont recall where I read that ,may have been in the WTN ,
    Roger
    Retired Tech.
  • hudsontechhudsontech
    Posts: 4,044Platinum Member
    A very savvy chief engineman I was stationed with had a friend with a 1939 Lincoln with a V-12 engine with aluminum heads. This engine had been around for many years and when they went to do an engine overhaul the heads were, literally, welded to the block. So the chief said back off the head bolts a couple turns and start the engine. Fellow drove it around for over a week with the bolts loose - heads never did break loose. They ended up having to destroy the heads to get them off.

    Hudsonly,
    Alex Burr
    Memphis, TN
  • GrimGreaserGrimGreaser
    Posts: 541Platinum Member
    Tallent, I sure could have used that hole saw trick when I pulled my iron head. The very center head bolt (whose head snapped clean off) had so much carbon and gunk packed around the bolt and in the hole I had to rig up a puller to work it off.

    Ah, the tricks you wish you knew...
    Six in a row makes it GO!
  • Tallent RTallent R
    Posts: 1,576Platinum Member
    Yes, neat idea ,seems like he would have needed something like a wood pin inside at the top so you could clamp it in the drill without crushing it . But I dont recall that part ,
    Roger
    Retired Tech.
  • Ken U-Tx
    Posts: 1,104Platinum Member
    They also have portable EDM's now that can safely remove broken or rusted studs from Blocks, heads, manifolds, etc. I have thought of getting a one and running a mobile broken stud removal service......I ran big Hansvedt and Charmilles EDM's in the past.
  • Uncle JoshUncle Josh
    Posts: 1,860Platinum Member
    EDM= Electrical Discharge Machine, the toolmaker's savior! And don't forget broken taps, Ken
  • Tallent RTallent R
    Posts: 1,576Platinum Member
    In the shop I used to work we had a atatchment called an Arc-Air for our big welder. Used a carbon rod coated with copper and a blast of 100 psi air. Combined with the power of a 300 amp DC welder turned full power -metal would just vanish.
    We used it to remove 6" shrink fit couplings from the shaft by cutting tru the key slot. And the shaft would not even be warm when done,
    Roger
    Retired Tech.