ClassicCar

faustmb

Just posting a feeeler here to gauge if there would be any interest in recast 1932 /33 Terraplane 6&8 water pumps. I know of at least one guy that needs one, and they seem to be impossible to find. I have a OE pump and would use it for the template. This could go either way, a finished pump or just housing and impeller castings.

If you may be interested, please reply and provide a general idea of what you may be willing to pay? Initial quotes were over $1000.00 for a single unit, which I feel is way too high and most people would not pay (myself included). I am hoping that maybe interest in 10 or so could get the price down and we could get some spares in circulation.

Thanks,
Matt

Marconi

One problem with these pumps is that the pulleys crack and 'fall apart' You can usually find the casting and rebuild kits but the pulley is made of unobtanium!

Geoff C., N.Z.

According to the parts catalogs, the same pump was used on '32-'33 Terraplane 6 & 8, and on '33 Hudson 6, so that widens your potential base a little as to those who could be interested.

Terraplane33

Marconi wrote:

One problem with these pumps is that the pulleys crack and 'fall apart' You can usually find the casting and rebuild kits but the pulley is made of unobtanium!

that's probably what happened to my car and the reason I have a brand new radiator...

Terraplane33

I'm interested in 2 recast housings and impellers

I will be able to arrange a spare unit for later, seen how difficult it is to find such a pump...

faustmb

Marconi wrote:

One problem with these pumps is that the pulleys crack and 'fall apart' You can usually find the casting and rebuild kits but the pulley is made of unobtanium!

Yes, my pulley was damaged and poorly re-welded (off center). It is good enough for a pattern though. I think a machined version would be more stronger, or possibly a modified casting to improve strength.

Would you happne to have a core pump or know where to locate one (sans pulley) for "Terraplane33 " ?

Terraplane33

if someone could make a draft of the original pulley, I could get one machined locally

I do not have the original one...

53jetman

I have seen replacement '32-'33 water pumps with the same style pulley used on the later Terraplanes & Hudsons. Did not purchase at the time, but deffinately should have bought one for my own stock.

Jerry

5433HET

I would be a buyer. I am in the beginning phase of tearing down my '33 six. Hasn't seen the road since the 1940's!

faustmb

Looks like someone added that extension for improved cooling?

Terraplane33

I guess it's a 6 cylinder engine as there is not enough space on my 8 cylinder for such a 'long neck'
I thought the 6 cylinders had a shorter wheelbase so it also could be that this is a 6 cylinder engine in a 8 cylinder car ? The experts will tell us !!

Terraplane33

53jetman wrote:

I have seen replacement '32-'33 water pumps with the same style pulley used on the later Terraplanes & Hudsons. Did not purchase at the time, but deffinately should have bought one for my own stock.

Jerry

Do you think a 39 Terraplane pulley would fit on an ET33 eight ? I should get one soon from southern France

5433HET

Terraplane33 wrote:

I guess it's a 6 cylinder engine as there is not enough space on my 8 cylinder for such a 'long neck'
I thought the 6 cylinders had a shorter wheelbase so it also could be that this is a 6 cylinder engine in a 8 cylinder car ? The experts will tell us !!

My car is a long wheel base six, essentially a ET 8 with a 6 engine! THere is also a blank area in the louvers closest to the radiator shell. look below!

Tallent R

Nice solid looking car for its age, Almost looks like you could put gas in and drive it away,
Roger

Geoff C., N.Z.

The l.w.b. sixes '33-35 had an extension bolted on the front pulley to extend the fan forward to the radiator. Must have put lots of extra stress on the bearings!

Terraplane33

I learned something more today !

Yes your lwb looks very solid

The water pumps seems to be identical to the 8

StillOutThere

There were three models of '33 Essex-Terraplane: The Model K was a 6 cyl on a 106" wheelbase (as were all '32 E-Ts). The Model KU was a 6 cyl on the 113" wheelbase. The Model KT was an eight cylinder on the 113" wheelbase. There were two or three(?) different 8 cyl. radiators employed during the year with V-cut cores to make room for the longer 8 cyl engine.

53jetman

Terraplane 33 - The picture with the extension on the pulley is for the longer WB T6 introduced sometime after the original '33 announcement date. I would guess you might be able to press fit a later pulley on the original '33 pump shaft. Youshould be able to tell by measuring the shaft.

Jerry

ivanz62

I also would buy a 33 complete pump for my 33ET 8 Cv. I would think it great if someone could gather orders, take deposits, and make sure they were properly done. Whoever did that work ought to get a free pump out of the deal! I had float bowls cast for 29 Hudson Marvel carbs a year ago and we're still trying to get the parts finished a year later!
Ivan

Terraplane33

I wouldn't mind to arrange this for free for all Hudson Essex Terraplane friends but additional shipping costs from overseas would not be of interest, most orders will be placed in the United States so it makes more sense to get the job done there.
Other people are doing also a lot of work for our community without any benefit, I'm thinking mainly about Alex as I don't know many members yet.

StillOutThere

I don't think I'm mistaken that at least half or more of the existing '33 E-Terraplanes are outside of the US. It isn't going to make any difference where they get made; it will make a huge difference IF they get made.

Terraplane33

yes and I hope they will be made...
it would be interesting to have a list on know Essex Terraplanes, I know there are at least 2 un France, a green/black six + mine...
I saw the green/black ona for sale, here is a picture :

[attachment=13125]4908238578_2012-02-05.jpg[/attachment]

if my learnings are correct this one looks lie a LWB, right ?

5433HET

You pass! 100%, good eye!

terraplane8

I'd be a starter for one too. Mine has been messed around with and is leaking again I have noticed.

faustmb

Thats not too bad, it sounds like maybe 5-6 would have homes right away. I think I could safely predict that double that would be used as spares etc., assuming pricing is right.

As far as the pulleys, maybe someone can clear this up. The 33 pulley is majorly offset, meaning the belt rides back over the pump shaft. Will the newer pulleys accomadate this? I have what I think is a '35 model pump, and it is drastically different. I'm thinking this would be a custom part. I can get estimates on machined versions of these which should be stronger than OE.

I don't mind heading up this effort, I have an OE pump and there seem to be some good casting outfits that I can try to get pricing going with.

Terraplane33

Great Job Matt !! Keep on going with this !

StillOutThere

For comparison /contrast, attached is a photo from the '34 Terraplane Showroom Salesman's Presentation Album of the 1934 waterpump.

[attachment=13219]34TDealer_27_WPump.jpg[/attachment]

faustmb

Hey guys , still working on this. I finally made a puller ( or pusher) to remove the main pump shaft. The last thing to do is press out the bushings before I can send it to the casting house for a final quote. I'm also working on machined pulley quotes. I think the the pulley will be pricey, a CNC order or 10 or so should bring the price way down. Lots of cutting required to keep the weight down on these. Any thoughts on the pulley material, aluminum vs steel? I have original versions of both, both steel are cracked,both aluminum are good. You can guess my thoughts...

ivanz62

I am still on for a complete pump. The pulley material should be steel as my original. It is so light that I doubt an aluminum one would be strong enough. Are the broken steel ones a result of being worked on as opposed to failure in service? I am sure that any machinist would want to make them in aluminum because its easier. I will take one either way.
Rhanks for moving forward.
Ivan

faustmb

Ivan, I don't know how the steel ones failed, but both were broken and welded where they connect to the shaft. Im guessing the old cast steel is pretty brittle, especially with the offset load. For ease of machining and increased strength, I plan to use a solid hub vs spokes, which will increase mass also. It won't look 100% original, but will be stronger. I plan to prototype with aluminum, but could make them out of steel too.

I think the most difficult / expensive aspect of new pumps will be the inner bushing/ shaft seal housing. These will be pricey to machine if I can't find an off the shelf replacement. I'll post some pics tonight.

Matt

Tallent R

Anyone concidered coming up with a more modern item to fit . Hudson would have replaced a problem item,
Roger

53jetman

Yes, I would be interested in one for my Model K. You might consider looking into have the casting machined to accept a shaft, bushing and seal like the more modern pumps on the stepdowns - then we could use the metal pulley that was used on those pumps.

faustmb

I finished completely disassembling the pump tonight. The brass piece I was worried about is actually much simpler than I thought, basically a bushing pressed inside of a pipe nipple with a special cap. All simple parts, that said, I'm thinking along the lines of Rogers comment.

Any ideas of what an improved pump seal would be? At this point, I feel very good about duplicating an OE pump. Making improvements is pretty straightforward if it can fit in the same space.

I hope to have casting costs this month, and hopefully machined pulley costs too.

Matt

faustmb

I'll try to add pics via my phone

Overview

Homemade tool, thanks to Buzz Stahl for the tips;

Pulleys, steel vs aluminum

53jetman

Sorry to report that your pictures didn't make it. Just a basic "Photo Bucket" web page.

faustmb

One more photo that may be of interest, using the tool to push the shaft out. I used the same tool with a combination of spacers and washers to push out all of the bushings. Very smooth and safe...

Disregard the other junk on my bench :(

faustmb

"Yes, I would be interested in one for my Model K. You might consider looking into have the casting machined to accept a shaft, bushing and seal like the more modern pumps on the stepdowns - then we could use the metal pulley that was used on those pumps."

I have some used stepdown pumps, I guess I need to pull one apart. I think the only way to use the later pulley is to shorten the housing. To do that, you would need to drastically increase the rear bearing so that only one is needed- I think. Good thought, I'll have investigate a bit further. I've got some NOS stepdown impellers, I was hoping to recycle those but it doesn't look promising so far.

terraplane8

It would be good to stay with the original pulley design and material IMO. It's quite unique looking piece, designed to be light with little inertia.

Surely these days a very good cast-iron material can be used that will be more durable than the original?

Terraplane33

Excellent job Faustmb !
:x

faustmb

Still waiting on the casting quote, the shop has been backed up for months but I'm losing some faith in them.

I did get a CNC machined steel pulley quote today of $165.00 ea. That seems reasonable to me based on the amount of steel cutting involved. It's a friend with a small shop, he'll measure and program based on the OE pulley I have. I afraid cast ones will cost more than that once they are machined are ready to use.

I also noted that there is no way to lubricate the original bushings on either of my original pumps. Does anyone know what was recommended for pump maintenance?

Courtesy Man

With the pump on the workbench is the hole shown in the photo threaded for a zerk fitting ??
Perhaps also a packing - looks like a fat washer. The grease for the zerk would have been a water soluable type if I recall. The original shaft was probably mild steel and would rust and damage the shaft and bushings as well as leaking badly. If I can help with some machining let me know - Gert Kristiansen HETgtkristi@copper.net (drop the HET).

Courtesy Man

Oops forgot to say that stainless steel for the pump shaft holds up better.

faustmb

I have stainless precision shaft lined up, I think it will hold up much better than the original. Someone added that tapped hole for some type of bleeder, I didn't find any other tapped holes. There is a thru hole by the inner bearing, but I think that is a weep hole?

AussieTerra

Greetings
I have a 1933 Essex Terraplane here in Australia and share your frustrations with the water pump problems. I spent quite some time looking into alternate water pumps from other manufacturers say a 1929 Chev as they are the closest looking and have new modern type seals but that all fell in a heap as the Terraplane water pumps are mounted on the head and discharge through the outlet pipe on the pump to the top radiator hose. The majority of water pumps made do the opposite and all I could find were Ford 4 and 8 cylinder water pumps from 1932 but it looks like the 4 cylinder type is too long and the 8 cylinder is not strong enough to support a fan. Any suggestions would be welcomed but I gather if there was one then we would know by now.
The photos here I believe show a 1934 Terraplane water pump housing with an unknown drive pullie that has been modified previously. I like you all would love to have an original type water pump with modern seals so we don’t have to put grease in our engines.
I would be interested in finding where the new pump is up to and also putting my name down for a pump or two.

faustmb

The water pump project stalled out with the casting house. They were too busy and never quoted after many missed deadlines. The few other shops I have approached were not interested in the small order either. Meanwhile, I took on the disk brake project, an IH Travelall project, a full kitchen remodel, and a few other things.

The project is just delayed however, as my Terraplane engine is being rebuilt now so I will need to have my pump back together shortly. I will update this thread when I get back on the project. Meanwhile, if you need any stock pulley dimensions i can get them. Also, I can get CNC machined pulleys in the $150 USD range, they should be stronger that the original castings, in steel or aluminum.

AussieTerra

Sorry for the delay, I’ll get back to you on the billet pulley. Do you or anyone have the dimensions for the centre line of the pulley where the belt runs to the base of the pump that bolts on to the head as what I have is in pieces and don't have a starting point to remanufacture a pump. I'm thinking that a lip seal and needle roller could probably be machined into the original water pump housings and the lip seal should be ok as the system is not pressurised. Also I have three good housings but have noticed that two of them have large outlets say inch and a half versus inch and a quarter for the one that matches my top radiator pipe inlet; is the larger housings for the 1934 model?

faustmb

I will check the pulley measurement, but it will take a few days for me to get to it out and re-assemble. I will also comare hose outlets, as I have a 34 pump also (longer housing). PM with a direct email address when you can. HETorphanautomill@gmail.com, drop the HET. ,

Matt

DocHubler

As best as I can tell, this pump would not work for the 33 Hudson eight (as stated earlier). There aren't many of those, so probably ok, although I wish I had to choice to use one if needed (just acquired a 33 Hudson Standard Eight). Apparently this will work on Hudson Six and Terraplane Six/Eight. They sold very few Hudson Sixes in 1933, so probably just about all your needs will be for Essex Terraplanes.

bob ward

One possibility for obtaining the cast pump housings is to join alloyavenue.com and post your requirements there. Alloyavenue is a web site for amateur metal and casters, there is a vast range of talent there, someone on there may be interested in a low volume project. If you can tolerate the housings being made in aluminium rather than cast iron that will increase the number of likely suppliers.

Terraplane33

I was thinking about buying a garden pump and adapt the housing (machining required of course), add a new flange with seal, bearings, shaft, impeller etc...

http://www.leboncoin.fr/jardinage/324917801.htm?ca=19_s

http://www.leboncoin.fr/materiel_professionnel/402258034.htm?ca=19_s

as far as I've seen and mesured (second one), it seems feasible...

faustmb

T33- sounds feasible. I will get back to this project too.

ClassicCar

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

We'd love to hear from you! info@classiccar.com