ClassicCar

dougson

The iron head advocates can have a good laugh now....

Well I started the engine and after I few electrical hickups (180 deg. out distributer) it ran fine. Timed it with the light, good vacuum, hydraulic lifters nice and quiet, no mechanical noise. But after a running it for a while it really burped a lot of coolant, as if there was air in the head or something. After turning it off and checking around I noticed that there was a "cream" on the dip stick, indicating water in the oil pan. I thought it might be condensation in the block. I refilled the radiator, started it, and started diddling with the carbs to get a decent idle speed. I wanted to try and let it "run in" for a while to seat everything but I still was concerneed about the water in the oil pan. This morning I retorked (70 deg.) the head to 80 ft.-lbs. and started the engine. After a few minutes I noticed signs of moisture curdling through the rear plugs. I stopped the engine and checked the dip stick. All cream. I drained the oil pan, full of oil/water. ::ohmy: Pulled the head (aluminum) and there was evidence of water in every cylinder. Sounds to me like a complete gasket failure. Was it the aluminum head? My builder worked hard to get the head perfectly flat and smooth. I used a BEST gasket. I coated both sides with three coats of copper spray. Was that bad? :blush: The intial torque was 75 lbs. I torqued the head following the mechanical manual (center-out). Maybe I'll look for a '54 iron head now. Any around? Maybe a 7X head? Any of those around..........? :S

Tallent R

I am not positive but I seem to recall Best brand head gaskets required no sealer. Having some speacial coating ?

hudsontech

Even if the gasket already had a coating of some sort of sealant spraying with copper spray (myself I always used aluminum spray - and one or two coats seemed to have sealed it. Put the gasket in place while the paint was tacky) I don't belive adding copper spray would cause the problems you've described. It's almost as if the gasket wasn't even in place.

And, by the by, if you're using an aluminum head make sure the gasket is the right one. I just know I'm going to get this wrong, so somebody please correct me if I am. Don't use a gasket with steel inserts where the studs/cap screws go thru the gasket. A little thing called electrolysis will literally weld the head, gasket and block together.

If I'm correct (and I'm trying to think back 30 years or more here) the correct gasket uses copper inserts.

I've seen this on a 1939 Lincoln V-12 - the fellow trying to overhaul the engine even loosened up the head bolts and started the engine and drove if for a week and that didn't separate the heads from the block. They ended up destroying the heads trying to get them off.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN
http://hetclub.org/burr/lithomepage.htm

ski4life65

I aggree with tallent, I think Best gaskets are put on dry

Ol racer

FYI

Sorry to suggest looking closer for other possibilities rather than the gasket or aluminum head......
Was the block resurfaced true too, bolt threads clean, perhaps crack un noticed, etc...

I say this because have a few with original aluminum heads, two with 'Best' gaskets K&W Copper sprayed (even though wasnt necessary) with no problems. I always final torque aluminum heads 'cold'.

TwinH

Wow,so sorry to hear this...I used the Best gasket with my Clifford head this spring
with the same multiple coats of copper spray and had no issues. Right or wrong I do
use higher torque(100ft. lb.)and cycle the nuts 3or 4 times before final torquing and
then after a good run in do a last loosen/retorque (cold). In your case I think the
coolant burp is kind of telling. Do you have a rough idea of how much water you used
to refill the radiator? Are you using the factory temp gauge? What kind of temps were
you seeing?Did you use a thread sealer on the stud threads in the block?

464 Saloon

I used a Best Gasket with a 51 aluminum on my 54. Did not spray anything on it. The Best gasket already has a coating of some sort. Its a pain to get off when you remove the head. Ive been through this twice changing heads. Never had any sealing problems but I DID NOT spray anything on the gasket and I DID resurface the deck of the block when I rebuilt the engine. Two things different from you that may or may not matter. Hope this helps

1951hornethardtop

Im not laughing. Been there and done that. My simpathys for all the hard work you hand to go through. I remember a lot of the alum. heads being replaced when they came out at the Hudson garages because they developed leaks into the comb. chambers and could ruin the engines. I personally would throw all the alum. heads away (I did) and go to iron heads. Oh they are pretty when polished but, have been a pain in the butt for maintance. Just a old guys oppinion.

Tallent R

The previous poster has a good point .If that was a used head uou put on it may have internal leaks you cant see. No fault of the gasket seal at all !
Roger

Hudson308

The Best head gaskets should go on dry... adding any sealant to them will inhibit the vulcanizing process they go through when you first start the engine. As 464 mentioned, if you mount them dry they seal so well it's difficult to remove the head later. I've used an engine hoist to do it and the gasket actually peels apart in layers, leaving each gasket half firmly adhered to the block and head.

Ken U-Tx

I think that if one needed to pull the head after installing a Best head gasket, if the engine will still start and run,one could drain the coolant, loosen the head bolts or nuts, leaving a gap about 1/16" under the head bolt heads or nuts, crank her up and start till the head gets pushed up against the head bolts, nuts and the loss of compression will shut her down, Then the head will be easier to remove without resorting to an engine hoist or worse, a pry bar? You still will have the messy and tedious job of removing the old gasket from both the block and head. LOL

Park_W

I'm waiting to see the reply to "did you put thread sealer on" the studs or bolts.

dougson

Thanks everyone for sympathy/help. I did coat the threads but Permatex high tack high temp. sealant but there were signs everywhere that it percolated out with the water. I used ARP 1/2" studs, which do not seat all the way on the block because the need for enough threads to "fill" the nut. I will explain this better later. Will use a better sealant nex time. In a few places it is evident (on the head) that the compression ring on the gasket intersected a bolt hole. My builder is rechecking the head for flatness and leaks. I've ordered a new '55-56 gasket (my engine is a '56). I will call BEST for their advice on mounting. If I did something wrong, and the head is fine, I will retry the aluminum unit once more. Thanks again for support.

cargray

I have found the best use for ALM. heads, is for decorations on the wall....Would not trust one, as far as I could throw it...TOO mamy problems, including stripped spark plug threads...RD:

1951hornethardtop

I never thought of hanging it on the wall. I could hang it right next to my picture of dogs playing poker. On second thought I would rather stay married.After 48 years I am to old to start over. LOL

hudsontech

1951hornethardtop wrote:

I never thought of hanging it on the wall. I could hang it right next to my picture of dogs playing poker. On second thought I would rather stay married.After 48 years I am to old to start over. LOL

Never to old to start over - I did it after 47 years. Works for me.

Hudsonly,
Alex Burr
Memphis, TN

dougson

Called BEST, they say gasket can be applied dry but they "recommend" coating it with copper spray. It turns out I mounted gasket upside down. The thin metal bead goes against head, not block. Waiting for news about the head.

Hudson308

dougson wrote:

Called BEST, they say gasket can be applied dry but they "recommend" coating it with copper spray. It turns out I mounted gasket upside down. The thin metal bead goes against head, not block. Waiting for news about the head.

Interesting. Got my mounting advice from Randy Maas a few years ago, will continue to mount them dry per great previous results... even with a factory aluminum head shaved .060". Don't feel bad about mounting the gasket upside down. Easy mistake to make as it is nearly symmetrical front-to-back. Coolant holes are the clue I use to tell the difference.

Browniepetersen

After bringing several Al heads into the shop I finally found one that was in good enough condition to put on my 308. We resurfaced the head to be sure it was flat. We also did the same with the block. It was so good that they would "ring" in place without the gasket. However, we did use a gasket as per print. We were ready and after a few torque sessions with the oversize studs we were happy and put it into the 52 "Salt Flats Racer" I took it out for its first run and "all hell broke loose!" We had water everywhere-- We pulled the head and there was a hole near the back port big enough to put your thumb through it. Picked up a steel head, did the machine thing with it and put it in the car. This was the car that I drove on the Bonneville Salt Flats at a double run average of 122.683. The Al head-hole and all-hangs on the shop wall. I am a steel head guy.......

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 August 2011 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

That was the problem from day one with ALUMINUM HEADS. My new 1954 Hornet was ordered with an aluminum head, it was a waste of good money. These people that like that head are not drivers. If they took their car for a 500 mile trip at high speed, they will come home on a wrecker. Use a good iron head, 308, decked block 0.010, head decked 0.030 and you have a better set up for the long run. My 308 just turned 138,000 in 12 years, and drove to Oklahoma City in temp to 113 degrees and no problems, would of never got there if aluminum. Walt.

hornet53

What about the aftermarket Al heads put out by Clifford and such? Do they still have problems like this, or has it all beeen worked due to more focused engineering?

No immediate plans for me, I'm just curious. The 262 head on my 308 has worked fine since I got the car.

Hudson308

walts garage-53 wrote:

These people that like that head are not drivers. If they took their car for a 500 mile trip at high speed, they will come home on a wrecker. Use a good iron head, 308, decked block 0.010, head decked 0.030 and you have a better set up for the long run. My 308 just turned 138,000 in 12 years, and drove to Oklahoma City in temp to 113 degrees and no problems, would of never got there if aluminum. Walt.

Well, Walt I don't think anyone in the world drives their Hudson anymore like you do, so you are the voice of experience here. After listening to all you guys I guess I've been lucky with mine... drove it down to the Kearney nationals from Minneapolis in July a few years back. I think that was your coupe parked across from me? Clifford added an additional inch to the deck surface of his aluminum head castings to keep these issues from happening. Not sure what Empire did.

[attachment=11639]Greenberg2005038.jpg[/attachment]

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 August 2011 Posts: 1,470Platinum Member

When I rebuilt my engine 16 years ago. and drove it to Florida with a Clifford head, had to install a new headgasket there, drove it home, S F, CA. and had to install another head gasket, instead I installed a 308 iron head done like I stated above. Aluminum expands when hot and loosen when cold, have to retorque all the time, on short trips that's OK, but on the road, no way. I'll stick with iron head and let the ones that like to install headgaskets keep the aluminum heads. I'd like to see an aluminum head follow me to Oklahoma City in that 113 degree weather. Today the temp there is 104. Walt.

Kdancy

Not sure what Empire did.

[attachment=11639]Greenberg2005038.jpg[/attachment][/quote]

When Chuck and Rudy re-designed their aluminum head, those items were addressed. Cliffords version was not a whole lot better than the original Hudson, as dissection of one proved.

"The Hudson version was Very Soft Alum.(no heat treatment) they only had 4-5 spark plug threads.
The floor is very thin with NO ribs cast in the floor. (blown gaskets) The temp regulator was too close to the inside of the head. and on and on and on.
On aluminum heads you cannot use head gaskets with copper water frells, as electrolysis takes place. Good water and anti-freeze needs to be used in any aluminum head as plain water just eats up the water holes due to mineral content= electrolysis."

We hope that our head will last and last,and last. and if it is treated with the proper coolant and some good ground straps from the block to the frame.

RonS

I'm nuetral on this head issue, since my 308 is cast iron. Aluminum prior to the 1990's has always be suspect. Case in point Rambler circa 1962(blocks) Buick 215s, Vegas and so on. Regarding the 308s I can not recall a cast iron head for sale on Ebay only aluminum. How available are cast iron head for 51 to 54s? If I recall the cast iron head was an option in 53, so the average Hudson rolled out of the factory with an aluminum head, unless the buyer was suspicious of a new technology and wanted LESS compression. With all these problems, are there enough iron heads around? Do any earlier iron heads work? I know some 262s are used. How about a list of options?

53jetman

The '53 Hornet came from the factory with the aluminum head as standard, unless the dealer was smart enough to order the optional cast iron head at no extra charge. My Dad had learned during the mid 40's that the aluminum head was a problem and thus ordered all cars through with cast iron heads. This eliminated a good many problems, as in the area we were located in, Sulpher water was predominate (just what an aluminum head would love!). In a pinch, you can substitute a iron head from any wide block 262 from 1951 through 1954.

Jerry

dougson

[quote="We were ready and after a few torque sessions with the oversize studs we were happy and put it into the 52 "Salt Flats Racer" I took it out for its first run and "all hell broke loose!" We had water everywhere-- We pulled the head and there was a hole near the back port big enough to put your thumb through it. Picked up a steel head, did the machine thing with it and put it in the car.[/quote]

What was the compression ratio of the engine and at what rpm did it let go?

I can see where mineralized water can create problems with an aluminum head. I only use water from my dehumidifier in my engines. Also, I agree that having good grounds is also essential.

50C8DAN

I have had an aluminum head on my H8 since its rebuild in '05 without any problems. However, I had it milled flat prior to installation.

464 Saloon

I put over 5000 miles with my 51 aluminum head before tearing the motor back down for other reasons to correct. Never had any problems and it was at times in pretty severe hot weather in stop and go traffic at times.

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