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In this Discussion
- 51hornetA December 2010
- brumac May 2011
- dougson May 2011
- essexcoupe3131 May 2011
- GrimGreaser May 2011
- Hudson308 May 2011
- ivanz62 May 2011
- Lee ODell May 2011
- Marconi May 2011
- RL Chilton May 2011
- Sambone May 2011
- schillaz May 2011
- ski4life65 December 2010
- SuperDave May 2011
- WildWasp May 2011
help identify motor
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I found this ol motor but I dont know much about it. I cannot find any serial numbers on the front pass side of the block and there is no tag under the head along the block on the driver side. I see it has the reinforcing ribs so it should be a 308. Im just wondering what year and how to tell.
It was in an old dirt race car.
Any thoughts? -
A 308 with studs and a 232 head..........maybe you hit the 7X Motherload;)
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Pull the head and you can really tell what you have.www.hudsonmotorcar.org
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If the block was cast by CWC there should be a casting date with small (1/4") digits directly under the distributor boss. It's above the larger 1/2" casting numbers. Syntax is similar to later GM castings, I.E. first letter is the month, followed by two to four digits indicating day and year. That should at least tell you the soonest it was assembled. All the big 6's I've come across have casting dates that jive pretty well with the chassis assembly period.Workin Stiff
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51hornetA wrote:Pull the head and you can really tell what you have.
what do i look for that would tell me its a 7x? size of valves? -
schillaz wrote:51hornetA wrote:Pull the head and you can really tell what you have.
what do i look for that would tell me its a 7x? size of valves?
That would do it. It would have a larger combustion area in the head, as well, but you would another head for comparison. If memory serves, I'll have to double check, but exhaust valves would be 1-7/8" and intakes are 2" . . . I think. -
When you pull the head look at the area in front of the valves it should have a deep relief cut into the block. The Inlet valve is 2" and the exhaust valve is 1-11/16.
Russell is right the 232 head will have its combustion area machined to match the block and bigger valves.
Pull the head post some pics and we can see what you have.www.hudsonmotorcar.org -
Ok i will have to wait until spring to take the motor to a location i can work on it, its in the back of a machine shed now.
I will definitely post some pix.
thanks
**Its gonna be a long winter now for sure! ha -
I cannot believe it......hit the jack pot.
Check this out, I finally have the motor in my possession. The dude actually took some time and sealed this motor up the best ive ever seen. He coated the cyl walls with grease, used cardboard for a head gasket, cardboard for at intake/exhaust gasket. And it actually worked. The cyl walls are beautiful not even a lip at the top of the cyl walls, hardly any carbon build up on the pistons............and best of all the intake valves are 2 inch's.......i cant sit still, im so damn excited.
heres some pix
[attachment=10566]cardboard-s.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=10567]top-s.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=10568]2inch-s.jpg[/attachment]
cardboard-s.jpg600 x 338 - 86K
top-s.jpg600 x 338 - 73K
2inch-s.jpg600 x 338 - 73K -
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
was 1 of those days
Mike -
Great googly moogly! Talk about a lucky Friday the 13th.Six in a row makes it GO!
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Have you guys ever seen one of these oil pans? do you know what its for or from? it seems to be stamped not welded??
[attachment=10588]oilpanleftside-s.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=10589]oilpanrightside-s.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=10590]oilpansie-s.jpg[/attachment]
oilpanleftside-s.jpg600 x 338 - 57K
oilpanrightside-s.jpg600 x 338 - 55K
oilpansie-s.jpg600 x 338 - 57K -
GrimGreaser wrote:Great googly moogly! Talk about a lucky Friday the 13th.
Yeah, what he said.
"Hash" is Hudspeak for a Hudson made by American Motors, Dan. '55-57.
You could still get a 308 in the Nash-bodied Hudsons thru '56 here in the US.
Got any pics of the bottom of the head?Workin Stiff -
You can sure see the deep relief cut into the deck of your block, between the valves and the cylinder.
Hard to tell from the pics if your 232 head has had any machine work done. Here are some shots of a (standard) '51 232 head for comparison...
[attachment=10615]P1010001.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=10616]P1010006.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=10617]P1010011.JPG[/attachment]
P1010001.JPG800 x 599 - 51K
P1010006.JPG800 x 599 - 44K
P1010011.JPG800 x 599 - 46KWorkin Stiff -
ivanz62 wrote:Like to know how deep the block relief is below the gasket surface where the bore is closest to the valves. Jack clifford told me they were sometimes as deep as 5/16". A standard 55-56 block is about 3/16".
Sure, I will take some pics of that for you tonight and post them here.
(if anyone else needs something feel free to ask I will try my best to supply pictures) -
It looks like a 7X to me. The two inch intake valves look original and the relief differentiate it from a pre-56. Nailing down the date will certainly tell you if it is an early block. Interesting in that it did not have the twin-H setup, but Twin-H was separate from thr 7X option. Like others have suggested, remove the cam and check its numbers. Also, a '56 would have hydraulic lifters. One note, in '56, Twin-H was standard on the 308.
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schillaz wrote:I found this ol motor but I dont know much about it. I cannot find any serial numbers on the front pass side of the block and there is no tag under the head along the block on the driver side. I see it has the reinforcing ribs so it should be a 308. Im just wondering what year and how to tell.
It was in an old dirt race car.
Any thoughts?
Curiosity on my behalf.... who was the dirt track racer and what track was this engine raced? Several Hot Hudson dirt track cars were raced in the midwest. If you are willng to say what part of the country did you find the engine?
Many of those engines were based on the replacement engines Hudson sold. The Hash pan has the advantage of allowing the engine to sit lower in the body. Relief machining in the 232 head was done by the engine assembler with whom I am familiar. Look forward to your answer. -
dougson wrote:It looks like a 7X to me. The two inch intake valves look original and the relief differentiate it from a pre-56. Nailing down the date will certainly tell you if it is an early block. Interesting in that it did not have the twin-H setup, but Twin-H was separate from thr 7X option. Like others have suggested, remove the cam and check its numbers. Also, a '56 would have hydraulic lifters. One note, in '56, Twin-H was standard on the 308.
As the story goes the car had a twin h but the car rolled over on the track and broke it all to hell so they just threw on a single carb? who knows how true that story is but?
the casting numbers on the block just below the distributor is D143 (april, 14th, 1953) would that be correct?
more pics/measurements
[attachment=10657]head_above_intake_v-s.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=10658]head_valley-s.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=10659]valve_relv_block-s.jpg[/attachment]
head_above_intake_v-s.jpg400 x 710 - 71K
head_valley-s.jpg400 x 710 - 65K
valve_relv_block-s.jpg400 x 710 - 82K -
This is not a question of what year the block is, but what "relieving" was done to the block to use the 232 head. As I said, the 55-56 blocks had the increased relief that measures about 3/16".
A real 7X with a 232 head (and a 54 or earlier block) was specially relieved and the 232 head was specially machined as well. Exactly how these two items were altered is somewhat "lost in the sands of time". This may be a chance to know. And one must be aware that the cast number on the camshaft does not necessarily tell you what cam grind it is. The same blank was used for a early 7X grind, a conventional late Hornet grind, and a hydraulic lifter grind. -
Dave,
I have a Jack Clifford 308 rebuild on a 53 block that came with 7/16" headbolts. Valves and relief is standard so it indicates that it was a run of the mill rebuild. I haven't had the cam out but it is a ordinary running 308. Jack would put in 1/2" studs if you ordered them as well as a lot of other mods.
Bruce -
Lee ODell wrote:What a lucky find. Congatulation. I have a feeling you might be just a little excited. Have you had a chance to see what camshaft is in the engine? What are your plans for it use?
Have a great day.
Lee O'Dell
I was able to turn the motor today and look at the numbers on the cam, it says 309742. -
Dougson,
The 309742 cam casting was used, as you say, in a number of ways. I have no idea how Hudson kept track of what 309742 cam was what in the parts bins! Bruce Maclellan sent me one that had the cast number and then a large capital letter "A" stamped below the casting number. That one turned out to be exactly the same as the standard Hornet 306344 cam. He also sent one with 306344 cast in and an "A" stamped that came out of a late 54 "Instant Action"block. That also was the same as the stock 306344!
This year I have measured on the :"Cam Doctor" 309742 castings that were:
1. Early 7X "Flat Top" or "Chain Stretcher" (a "dwell nose" cheater stock trick)
2. Hydraulic Lifter Cam
3. Mechanical lifter grind from a 1955 block never rebuilt
4. With the "A" stamp from Bruce's late 54 block--same as stock Hornet 306344
That ought to be confusing enough for any parts man. -
Yep, that's really a great find! It even turns over, to boot, which is a nice plus. What kind of plans do you have for the engine?
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RL Chilton wrote:Yep, that's really a great find! It even turns over, to boot, which is a nice plus. What kind of plans do you have for the engine?
I have a 53 super wasp coupe I would like to drop this motor in. But the car is far from being ready to drop in and drive. What i would really like to do is build a NASCAR clone with it and make it look like it just came off the race track. Not all pretty and fantasy. I would like the paint to look old and weathered and the decals be barley visible. That would be fun, just not sure I could bring myself to fix it up and make it look old...haha. -
I installed the new, big valves today and the engine is almost ready to go in the car. My builder has degree'd the cam and is preparing a complete timing card, which I will post soon. The '56 version of the '742 was pretty hairy for flat head era engines, 260 deg. duration!
