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In this Discussion
- brumac April 2010
- cbonner757 May 2011
- Oldcar_Mechanic April 2010
'53 Commander No fluid lines to radiator? Why?
-
'53 Commander No fluid lines to radiator? Why?
We are working on a '53 Commander. It has been garaged since the early seventies. Bodywork done, engine running nice, carb rebuilt, new water pump, brakes, just pulled the radiator. It's an automatic but there were no cooling lines. How come? -
Back then they had a trans know as a Borg Warner DG200 or 250. It is an air cooled transmission. They have a 3" tube made from paper/asphalt that goes from the bell housing to a mount nearby to catch the air. It is often referred to as a BW 3 Band.
They can start in 2nd gear and shifts to lock-up. In reality it is a 1 speed with a lock-up. The only way to get first gear is to shift it manually.
It also has a throttle rod that is often out of adjustment that causes early or late shifts and will often cause engine drag and possibly the engine to die at stops.
Hope this helps
Ron -
Ron, I have a 54 Hudson Hornet that was delivered new with the BW DG 200 transmission. I have only driven it for 1000 miles as I bought it mid year 2009 and did brakes etc. Yes, I know nothing about the BW except Stude used a lot of them. Can you tell me how reliable they are, etc. I hadn't found a "cooling tube " like you described and suspect that installing one wouldn't hurt.
Thanks in advance,
Bruce -
I get all my Studebaker information from a friend of mine back up in Chicago where I am originally from. He is a transmission troubleshooter for a large high line auto company and the President of a local Studebaker club. I will send him an e-mail and see what he says.
I'll get back to you soon........stay tuned.
Ron -
Hi Bruce,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I got the e-mail from my friend and here it is. I will have more for you when I talk to him directly.
Hey Ron
This is my favorite transmission, the official 1 speed with lock up converter, rebuildable in the car and an optional low gear for quick starts. Air cooled by the way. I will talk to you tonight about it as I’m out the door.
Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Steve Jaffe
Regional Service Manager
ZF Automotive Technology Group
ZF Services North America , LLC
777 Hickory Hill Drive
Vernon Hills, IL 60061
Phone 847-478-6784
Steven.Jaffe@ZF.com -
Hi Ron,
Just wondering if your old buddy ever got back to you with some trans info on the DG 200? You are most likely aware that this site went down over the weekend for a while and disrupted communications. I think it messed up a few folks for a while.
Bruce -
Actualy I didn't know about the site. I haven't been on the net for a couple of days.
I should be talking with him this week though. He has had his hands full with a Father and Mother that have some serious illnesses plus work plus his own family. I will not forget you though and be back with what I can ASAP.
Ron -
Thanks Ron,
I'm just going to hang loose.
Bruce -
Hope this helps you Bruce
Hi Ron hope retirement in Florida agrees with you, I know you miss the Chilly Chicago weather 32◦this am. The Borg warner DG 200 or DG250 were used by several OE’s in the late forties and early to mid fifties. It’s often referred to as the three band transmission and is one of my favorites. It’s basically a second gear start with converter lock up creating the feel of a 1 to 2 shift. I like to call them a one speed with lock up although a manual low was available. They used a second pump at the rear to allow push starting if the need ever arose. I have worked on a couple but nothing serious. For the most part they are reliable. They use a mechanical governor similar to an old tractor and when the governor spins fast enough and expands it trip’s a lever causing lock up. Some of the earlier versions used on the Studes also incorporated an idle switch that replaced the idle stop screw, when at idle it activated a solenoid in the front brake line and locked the brakes to prevent creep, aptly named the anti creep. From the couple I have worked on setting the throttle control rod is critical. This connects the throttle pedal to the transmission and relays throttle position. Often these are mistakenly referred to as kick down rods but if incorrectly adjusted or removed and reinstalled into the wrong mounting hole they become undrivable often causing the engine to die or pull down and almost die at stops. The bands require a “special tool†to adjust but info is available to get past this. The cooling tube is nothing more than a 3’’ flex tube held in place next to the bell housing ducting air to the transmission. It is important as these are air cooled. They originally ran on 10w non detergent oil but most now run dexron. I have seen many parts still available including complete valve bodies at swap meets and governor assemblies. The problem is locating a shop to work on them. Also if the engine does not idle well and requires keeping the idle high or driving with two feet it can cause the problem I described above at stops. When working correctly they are fun to drive and run quite well.
Steve
Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Steve Jaffe
Regional Service Manager
ZF Automotive Technology Group
ZF Services North America , LLC
777 Hickory Hill Drive
Vernon Hills, IL 60061
Phone 847-478-6784
Steven.Jaffe@ZF.com -
Ron,
Thank you and also your old friend Steve for the information. The tranny seemed to shift well and had no apparent problems in the thousand miles I did drive it last year however I wondered about adjusting the bands which most likely could benefit from an adjustment after 70,000 miles. The Hudson service proceedure mentions the special tools and the old Motors Manual has a more common way, which I will use. At present it is out of the car while the engine is going thru a rebuild so that makes it much easier. Whether it remains my long term transmission or gives way to the more popular GM Hydromatic or to a GM 700R4 is unknown at this time but I'm assured that with some care, the BW will be fine for now.
Many thanks,
Bruce -
No problem, hapy to help.
I can imagine that you can get a good dollar for the trans if you sell it. Someone looking for an original would love to have it.
Best of luck with whatever you do.
Ron -
Hi, Bruce. You can visit the Studebaker Drivers Club Forum, and there is lots of expertise on these transmissions there. DG-200 and DG-250s have a great reputation, and were licensed to be built for Ford, Hudson, and Jaguar for many years after Stude had BW design them for Studebaker. I've read that they are far superior to later automatics, but were expensive to produce so the designs got simpler and cheaper later on. Oddly, I'm chasing down to confirm that my 1951 Stude Champion six-cylinder 4-door has a non-stock BW DG-200 that was apparently built for Hudson, since its serial number begins with HA- instead of the expected SC-. If you can tell me what your serial number looks like, it would be of help to me. Regards, Clarence
