ClassicCar

Canadian Hud

I am trying to diagnose/fix what appears to be a timing chain problem in my 47 6 cyl (which should be gears, but the symptoms indicate chain and gear -- another story).

I have removed the 1 1/2" bolt which holds the crank pulley/harmonic balancer in place but can't get the pulley/balancer off. It appears to be a straight fit not tapered, has a keyway etc. But there are no holes to screw a puller into, and fairly gentle encouragment with a pry bar is having no noticable effect. I don't have a puller with long enough arms/claws or width to get behind the balancer.

Suggestions? Am I missing a specialized tool? Is there a technique I don't know about?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

PAULARGETYPE

Hudson had a puller that had short puller arms it would fit inside the frame and around the pully with a bolt down the center for pressing off the pully

Uncle Josh

I pull them with a rather generic puller from Auto Zome etc. with arms that get behind the pulley.

Maybe you can borrow one from your friendly garage.

Geoff C., N.Z.

It will be extremely rare to find a chain in there, unless the engine has been replaced with a later model. I know the workshop manual says not thammer on the dampener, but I have done so on many occasions, and they nudge off quite well, if you turn the engine over as you are doing it to stop it wedging sideways. If you have a fibre gear it is most likely the centre hub loose if you are getting a variation in valve timing. Replace it with an alloy gear.

Canadian Hud

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

It will be extremely rare to find a chain in there, unless the engine has been replaced with a later model. I know the workshop manual says not thammer on the dampener, but I have done so on many occasions, and they nudge off quite well, if you turn the engine over as you are doing it to stop it wedging sideways. If you have a fibre gear it is most likely the centre hub loose if you are getting a variation in valve timing. Replace it with an alloy gear.

Excellent advice, and your thoughts on the fibre gear spinning away from the centre hub make sense -- it would explain it pefectly.

Thanks.

Jon B

I've seen that happen before (the hub separating from the outer portion). Sometimes it will actually move back in alignment, then the two parts will shift out of alignment again, making for a most confusing situation!

SuperDave

If you decide to use a hammer.. Use a heavy Brass hammer ,dead blow hammer or a heavy steel one with a block of wood. beating on it with a claw hammer will most likely just make marks and dings on it. leading to further frustration.

Fred

If you replace gear as Geof suggests, I am told you should replace both gears as the angle of the teeth are different on the aluminum gears as apposed to the fiber gears

Fred

Clutch guy

I would not recommend using a hammer! If you don't have the proper tools and knowledge,PAY someone that does! You will be many $$$$$ ahead, or go rent the correct puller. Once you have the damper removed and the cover off,inspect what needs to be done or what you find,and re-post here. If it does have the fiber gear and the teeth are gone,remember,those pieces are in the oil pan and in all the slinger troughs for oiling in the block. When installing the new aluminum gear,it will again,require a puller to remove the lower crankshaft gear, different from the damper puller. The aluminum cam gear[20 degree pitch] has to be mated with a 20 deg.crank gear. I would inspect everything and VERIFY that if it does have a fiber gear,and it is stripped of teeth,MAKE SURE THAT it hasn't been mis-matched to begin with. The lower crank gear will either have a 166--- part # or it will have a 20 on it. If it has a fiber gear,to ease the problems you are experiencing,I would put another fiber back in. These last at least 20,000 miles,if not twice that. How many miles do you think you will drive it and how hard??. I am not trying to "dis" anyone or contradict the advise of others,but merely offering my Opinion and experience.CG

Canadian Hud

Clutch guy wrote:

I would not recommend using a hammer! If you don't have the proper tools and knowledge,PAY someone that does! You will be many $$$$$ ahead, or go rent the correct puller. Once you have the damper removed and the cover off,inspect what needs to be done or what you find,and re-post here. If it does have the fiber gear and the teeth are gone,remember,those pieces are in the oil pan and in all the slinger troughs for oiling in the block. When installing the new aluminum gear,it will again,require a puller to remove the lower crankshaft gear, different from the damper puller. The aluminum cam gear[20 degree pitch] has to be mated with a 20 deg.crank gear. I would inspect everything and VERIFY that if it does have a fiber gear,and it is stripped of teeth,MAKE SURE THAT it hasn't been mis-matched to begin with. The lower crank gear will either have a 166--- part # or it will have a 20 on it. If it has a fiber gear,to ease the problems you are experiencing,I would put another fiber back in. These last at least 20,000 miles,if not twice that. How many miles do you think you will drive it and how hard??. I am not trying to "dis" anyone or contradict the advise of others,but merely offering my Opinion and experience.CG

Good advice. I intend to try to rent a puller before I do anything else. Your idea to account for missing teeth is an excellent heads up. I probably wouldn't have thought of that right away. Once off, we'll see what the gears look like/what needs replacing. Thanks.

junkcarfann

When you use a puller, make sure that the center bolt of the puller is not damaging the internal threads of the crankshaft, the threads that hold the big bolt at the front of the crankshaft.

I almost did that on a 1940 six, but stopped before the damage got serious.

To avoid damaging those threads, I put a deep-well 3/8" drive socket (I think it was a size 7/16") that fit easily into the crankshaft hole, with the end of the socket that fits onto the ratchet facing outwards, towards the front of the car.

You want to use a socket that is long enough so that the puller bolt cannot touch the crankshaft bolt's threads.

Then I put the puller on, and let the force of the center bolt of the puller press against the socket, rather than against the threads in the crankshaft. It worked fine.

bobbydamit

If you have access to steel, have someone cut you a couple of pieces that are 1/2 thick and will fit behind the balancer. This gives you something to grab onto with a puller. If you start to bend the plates, rap the center of the puller bolt until the pulley moves. If this is not an option and you cannot get a puller from NAPA or Car Quest, I have done this as a last resort. Drilling two holes in the damper close to the center of the distance between the outisde and the center will allow bolts and nuts to be inserted and a double bar puller can be used by putting the bolts through the bars and washer/nut them. be sure to use a thick washer over the threads of the crank to protect the threads from the puller bolt. The balancer will still be balanced, if the holes are 180 degrees across from each other. I would recommend paying someone first before doing this, but it does work in a pinch. Very slow drilling will get it done, Fast will not.

Canadian Hud

Thanks for the advice -- creative!

I used a universal puller and (very slowly and carefully) managed to get it off.

Problem now is: the two gears look fine, no teeth missing. More mystery -- but hey! that's half the fun I guess.

Thanks. Will post if more problems.

Geoff C., N.Z.

Is the gear alloy or fibre? If fibre, you need to inspect the centre hub where it joins to the fibre, as this can come loose. If it is alloy you have wasted your time!

Geoff.

bobbydamit

Geoff C., N.Z. wrote:

Is the gear alloy or fibre? If fibre, you need to inspect the centre hub where it joins to the fibre, as this can come loose. If it is alloy you have wasted your time!

Geoff.

I have always had nothing but respect for Geoff. Had many talks with him when I had a 30 Essex, even met the guy once, but in this instance, Geoff, I have to disagree with you. If it is an alloy gear, and he took the balancer off, he did not waste his time. This is a perfect time to check the stretch of the chain, ie. the lash as found, and the condition of the seal and shaft surface.

:rolleyes:How many times have we looked at the sloppy cam movement when setting timing with a light? And what about those little drips, not enough to pull everything apart, but still makes a mark on the floor and a mess of fhe engines new paint. Or wished we had replaced the cover seal before it grooved the crank. Well this guy has it made in the shade if he takes advantage of his situation and does all of the above. Never time wasted my friend Geoff, if the cars are better off when we put them back together.:Dc

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

This ones just what I need , OK, here is what I have happening . I set the timeing with timeing light on TDC and it runs under no load . take it on the road and it sputters . HOWEVER , if I set the timeing by ear it runs faster and smoother but the timeing mark on the flywheel is nowhere in sight with the timeing light . Take it o the road and it hesitates on getting going but if I ease down on the gas it does ok thru 1st-2nd gear and if I take it real easy on the gas I can get it up to mid range in 3rd . With it set by ear to run the best when I put the timeing light on #6 plug the flywheel mark shows up there . From what you guys are saying it looks like I have the slipped problem with the center hub . Any way to check this , like maybe when piston is at TDC the gear marks will be off ? This problem developed while doing a rebuild, ran OK before , does the timeing gear dry out and loose adhesion if left off for a few months ? If so then the spare I have from another old engine is probably wasted time trying it , right ? Are the gears the same for ALL year model 212 engines ? BUD

junkcarfann

bobbydamit wrote:

This is a perfect time to check the stretch of the chain, ie. the lash as found, and the condition of the seal and shaft surface.

If it is a 1947 engine, it does not have a timing chain...just two gears meshing.

The 1948 and later stepdown 6 has a timing chain, but not a fiber gear on the camshaft.

Clutch guy

junkcarfann wrote:

If it is a 1947 engine, it does not have a timing chain...just two gears meshing.

The 1948 and later stepdown 6 has a timing chain, but not a fiber gear on the camshaft.

He was probably referring to his '30 Essex-chain driven.

walts garage-53 · walts garage-53 March 2010 Posts: 1,486Platinum Member

Canadian Hud wrote:

Thanks for the advice -- creative!

I used a universal puller and (very slowly and carefully) managed to get it off.

Problem now is: the two gears look fine, no teeth missing. More mystery -- but hey! that's half the fun I guess.

Thanks. Will post if more problems.

All Hudson engines, 6 or 8's, had fiber timing gears to year 1942. !946 to 1947 6 cylinders had aluminum timing gears as well as the 8's to 1952. To change to aluminum up to 1942, you have to modify the front engine motor mount plate. If you have my tech tip book, volume one, (1) go to page 29 and it has the complete story on timing gears. When I remove a crank pulley, I have a crank bolt that I machined the wrench part off and drill a center hole and cut a groove for a screw driver and install in the crank. You will never hurt the threads. Do not hammer or drill holes as this part is balanced and you can have a slight vibration at 18 miles per hour. Walt.

Canadian Hud

walt's garage-53 wrote:

All Hudson engines, 6 or 8's, had fiber timing gears to year 1942. !946 to 1947 6 cylinders had aluminum timing gears as well as the 8's to 1952. To change to aluminum up to 1942, you have to modify the front engine motor mount plate. If you have my tech tip book, volume one, (1) go to page 29 and it has the complete story on timing gears. When I remove a crank pulley, I have a crank bolt that I machined the wrench part off and drill a center hole and cut a groove for a screw driver and install in the crank. You will never hurt the threads. Do not hammer or drill holes as this part is balanced and you can have a slight vibration at 18 miles per hour. Walt.

Well now I am a little confused. I have an aluminum crank gear, but a fibre cam gear. Are you saying I will have to modify the front motor mount plate on my 47? The cam gear looks easy to remove (three bolts on the face of it will facilitate a puller quite easily), but are you saying that the aluminum crank gear needs a special tool?

As I understand it, I should replace both cam and crank gears (even though the crank is aluminum already) so that the degree of engagement (the teeth) are correct.

A) do I have to replace both gears, though the crank is already aluminum?

do I need to modify my front motor mount plate if I change crank gear?

C) do I need a special puller for the crank gear beyond what is available at Parts Source (local supply co)?

Just want to get this right (before the good weather comes

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Geoff , lets back this thing up to your first post . You say your trying to fix what appears to be a timing problem . Have you ever had it running right or did you aquire it running like it is . Looks like somebody has been in there changeing gears . That thing will run with the cam 180 degrees out , but not right ! AND, it will show compression with the pinky in the plug hole as tho it was in right ! Here's a way to tell. The bolts that hold the cam gear on are unevenly spaced by about 1/16 inch . Between 2 of them it will be shorter . If you measure from them to the 3rd one those 2 measurements will be the same , so lets call this third one the LONG HOLE . IF the cam is in right it should be at 7:30 by the clock, not 7 not 8 or anywhere else , 7:30 and the marks on the gears should then match , one dot on the crank and 2 on the cam, the crank dot goes between the other 2 and the TDC timing mark on the flywheel should be lined up with the pointer and the Dist. rotor at the #1 plug wire . You don't need a puller for the cam gear, just nudge it loose/away from the block with a screwdriver. BUD

Huddy42

G'Day CanadianHudson,

The crank gear will be steel or cast iron and not aluminium,I have NEVER seen an aluminium crank gear in my 50 years of playing around with H/T vehicles. I have a 1942 Hudson and when I bought it the first thing I did was to check the timing gears, to my surprise the fibre gear was 20 Deg to suit the crank gear, the early fibre ones are 14 1/2 Deg, so just do a double check on the cam gear.(fibre) If it is 20 deg it will have 20 stamped on the gear some place.

If replacing to the 20 deg gears, YES you need to change both gears, and modify the engine plate.

To modify the front engine plate you need to counter sink the two screws behind the gear, or what I have done is , grind the heads down on the bolts that are there now, just leave enough to get a spanner or socket on them and then locktite them in, but make sure they clear the back of the gear, you don't need a puller for the cam gear, but, will need one for the crank gear, be very care not to chip any of the teeth on the crank gear if they are the cast type.

If you need any more info email me at huddy42@optusnet.com.au

Les.P. Down Under.

Canadian Hud

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Geoff , lets back this thing up to your first post . You say your trying to fix what appears to be a timing problem . Have you ever had it running right or did you aquire it running like it is . Looks like somebody has been in there changeing gears . That thing will run with the cam 180 degrees out , but not right ! AND, it will show compression with the pinky in the plug hole as tho it was in right ! Here's a way to tell. The bolts that hold the cam gear on are unevenly spaced by about 1/16 inch . Between 2 of them it will be shorter . If you measure from them to the 3rd one those 2 measurements will be the same , so lets call this third one the LONG HOLE . IF the cam is in right it should be at 7:30 by the clock, not 7 not 8 or anywhere else , 7:30 and the marks on the gears should then match , one dot on the crank and 2 on the cam, the crank dot goes between the other 2 and the TDC timing mark on the flywheel should be lined up with the pointer and the Dist. rotor at the #1 plug wire . You don't need a puller for the cam gear, just nudge it loose/away from the block with a screwdriver. BUD

Thanks Bud. Yes, the car was running beautifully in the fall. Your tips and those of others should help me get this thing back on track. Very good info and easily decipherable. Thanks!!

Canadian Hud

Huddy42 wrote:

G'Day CanadianHudson,

The crank gear will be steel or cast iron and not aluminium,I have NEVER seen an aluminium crank gear in my 50 years of playing around with H/T vehicles. I have a 1942 Hudson and when I bought it the first thing I did was to check the timing gears, to my surprise the fibre gear was 20 Deg to suit the crank gear, the early fibre ones are 14 1/2 Deg, so just do a double check on the cam gear.(fibre) If it is 20 deg it will have 20 stamped on the gear some place.

If replacing to the 20 deg gears, YES you need to change both gears, and modify the engine plate.

To modify the front engine plate you need to counter sink the two screws behind the gear, or what I have done is , grind the heads down on the bolts that are there now, just leave enough to get a spanner or socket on them and then locktite them in, but make sure they clear the back of the gear, you don't need a puller for the cam gear, but, will need one for the crank gear, be very care not to chip any of the teeth on the crank gear if they are the cast type.

If you need any more info email me at huddy42@optusnet.com.au

Les.P. Down Under.

You're absolutely right. Cast, not aluminum. Don't know what I was thinking -- probably that it was metal, not fibre. Thanks for the catch!

I'll look for the stamp or change gears if necessary. Again, great info. I'll get back to it tomorrow well armed and more comfortable with the process. Thanks very much!

Clutch guy

Geoff,look very close for the "20" on the crankgear. This will tell you how to proceed. If the crankgear has a "20" and not the 6 digit Hudson part#, it will tell you where to start. very simple.

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

OK GEOFF , little confusion there about gears . It now looks like you have the original type gears , no need to change either unless the fiber gear slipped on it's hub , not likely just sitting over winter , this would happen while driveing it . OK , now tell us what caused you to think you had a timeing problem . If you haven't disturbed the distributor setting or pulled any gears off you might want to put the cover back on and check some things. No need to put the pully back on for this, you'll only be running it a couple minutes at a time . Use a timeing light and see what it shows, I put some chalk on the flywheel mark to make it easy to see . If it's not there it did jump time . If it's on the mark at idle rev it a couple times to see if it advances . If it does not move go to the dist , if it's vacume advance look for leaks .Take the cap off and advance the rotor by hand noticeing if it is stiff to move , has springs so will resist some. Move it as far as you can and release it . IT should pop back to it's original spot . If it don't take the rotor off , the shaft will have a little felt pad in it , take it out and put some penetrateing oil in the shaft , put the rotor back on and work it back and forth untill it frees up and pops back on it's own, may need to soak over night ,then put some very light oil in the shaft, put the felt back . ---BUD.

Clutch guy

Clutch guy wrote:

Geoff,look very close for the "20" on the crankgear. This will tell you how to proceed. If the crankgear has a "20" and not the 6 digit Hudson part#, it will tell you where to start. very simple.

"20" = Aluminum cam gear. If it has a 166--- part#,this is the matching number for a fiber. Provided the crank gear is good,match the cam gear to it,this will save alot of time. The crank gear is hard to remove in the car. If the car was running good when parked last year,I now am wondering why you think it is timing related???.:confused::confused:

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Clutch guy wrote:

"20" = Aluminum cam gear. If it has a 166--- part#,this is the matching number for a fiber. Provided the crank gear is good,match the cam gear to it,this will save alot of time. The crank gear is hard to remove in the car. If the car was running good when parked last year,I now am wondering why you think it is timing related???.:confused::confused:

My thoughts also per my previous post , I'm in favor of

putting it back together , hope he hasn't changed anything , and then we can take him thru checking things out and also come up with the odd ball things that can happen . BUD

Canadian Hud

Sorry guys -- now I am confusing YOU!!

The car stopped running last fall. Just getting around to working on it now.

It ran like a top. I parked it on a very slight incline. When I came out it sounded like the starter had spun -- high whining/fast turning over, wouldn't run at all. Okay, but in gear the car lurches forward, so the starter must be engaging. Next checked compression in cyl 1 -- zero. Fan turns over with the starter and the rotor turns when I take the cap off...

So, I assumed the timing had slipped so badly that the valves were open when the piston did the compression cycle -- hence the no resistance fast spin of the motor when I hit the starter. This would be easier to explain if there WAS as chain (skipped a tooth, broken chain etc) and if I thought the car rolled back a bit on the hill against a taut chain, but I am thinking it is still possible if the centre of the fibre gear is spun away. The hub of the cam gear doesn't LOOK broken away, but I am going to take it off tomorrow and inspect or try to mark it and see what happens when I turn the key.

Am I way off base? Other ideas?

(Wish I lived in your neighbourhoods - this would be a lot easier

Thanks, as always.

Hudson308

Well, if it won't build compression there's definitely a cam timing issue.

Did you ever find the number stamped on the crank gear?

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Slow down just a bit , we'll get there faster in the end . If it was running good , info on gear #s is good to know but not relevant in this case . You have the right gears or it would not have been OK before . Just eyeballing the cam gear will not likely tell you anything . Lets look at a couple of things before you dissturb anything . You have the cover off , turn the engine to where the one dot on the crank gear is between the 2 dots on the cam gear EXACTLY CENTERED. then look at the dist. rotor and see where it is at in relation to the plug wires on the cap . It should be on #1 . Also do the "LONG HOLE" check on the cam I explained earlier . Both the rotor and the long hole should be right on , the 7:30 position is not near there , it is THERE . Let us know what you find before you do anything else and we can be of more/better help . I check the computer in the morning /about noon and in the evening . BUD

Clutch guy

Hudson308 wrote:

Well, if it won't build compression there's definitely a cam timing issue.

Did you ever find the number stamped on the crank gear?

Geoff, spend the time checking it out. Does the distrib.rotor turn smoothly or skip?-not that it really matters at this point. As Hudson308 states,no compression= crank vs. cam timing is off. Walt stated that '46 and on had a aluminum gear,and if your car has a fiber gear you are probably going to discover mismatched gears. If you have a 20 on the crank gear,I have a aluminum cam gear. Waiting for you to post back here.

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Now guys , lets not confuse Geoff . I know nothing about those numbers , what I do know is it would not have run long with a missmatch and it would eat the fiber gear to where ANYONE would say "THIS AINT GOOD " We don't even know if the engine is really a 47 , if someone has allready changed both the crank and cam gear in a 47 , put an earlier crank and cam in a 47 . Lets find the sickness before we prescribe a cure , we can and will find his problem if we start at the beginning and take one step at a time . BUD

Clutch guy

A low RPM and then the engine dies??, now has no compression? He should feel lucky,high RPM and the gear breaks and the cam and crank make contact on a 3x5 it will make an inspection hole at about #2 or #3. It does sound like he is on the right track. Darned old cars. He should call the dealer and ask about the Warranty!

Hudson308

Clutch guy wrote:

He should call the dealer and ask about the Warranty!

At least his throttle didn't stick wide open! :eek:

Course, with these darned old cars you can just reach over and turn off the key without worrying about the steering lock!

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

At this point with the info he gives I agree that I also think he's in the right place , but not positive , so let's go back to the start and have him do the things that proove it , { I don't think sticking in new gears to see what will happen is the way to go } then if he needs gears it's time to match what goes back in . BUD

bobbydamit

junkcarfann wrote:

If it is a 1947 engine, it does not have a timing chain...just two gears meshing.

The 1948 and later stepdown 6 has a timing chain, but not a fiber gear on the camshaft.

Sorry I thought he said he had a chain and gear, which would be a newer engine, 48 or newer. Now sounds like slippage. happens :eek:all the time

Canadian Hud

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Slow down just a bit , we'll get there faster in the end . If it was running good , info on gear #s is good to know but not relevant in this case . You have the right gears or it would not have been OK before . Just eyeballing the cam gear will not likely tell you anything . Lets look at a couple of things before you dissturb anything . You have the cover off , turn the engine to where the one dot on the crank gear is between the 2 dots on the cam gear EXACTLY CENTERED. then look at the dist. rotor and see where it is at in relation to the plug wires on the cap . It should be on #1 . Also do the "LONG HOLE" check on the cam I explained earlier . Both the rotor and the long hole should be right on , the 7:30 position is not near there , it is THERE . Let us know what you find before you do anything else and we can be of more/better help . I check the computer in the morning /about noon and in the evening . BUD

I am going to take all your advice and check the car out tomorrow early afternoon. I'll check gears, numbers, rotor turning, compression, maybe have a beer, and then let you know what I find. Thanks guys!!!

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

GREAT , what we really need to know is with the flywheel mark on tdc and the gear marks in perfect alignment , where the rotor and "long hole' is at . IF the cam gear has slipped on the hub both will be off and no other testing is needed . Then it's time to take them off and put on a matching set. For the difference in cost versus the work/headache when a fiber gear goes bad I highly recomend going the aluminum cam gear route . FINAL PROOF BEFORE ASSEMBLY, line up the hole pattern on the new cam gear and the old one and see if the dots are out of allignment . When you put the new gears in remember the 7:30 trick with flywheel and gear marks lined up . The flywheel must be on mark or you could be putting it in 180 degrees off just useng the gear marks . BUD

Geoff C., N.Z.

Bud, I might be missing something, but I cannot understand your last instruction about being 180 deg. out. The dot marks are in fixed relationshiip to t.d.c. The flywheel can only be put on in one position, likewise the crank gear and cam gears. How possibly could anything be installed half a turn wrong?

Geoff.

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Just covering all things Geoff ,He's putting gears on a cam with the engine in the car, if he did the finger in the plug hole thing it will have compresion even on the back side of the cam for an instant . it is possable to put it in 180 out,.and the dang thing will even start and run good at low rpm . won't have any power tho . Just trying to impress on him to check EVERYTHING , leave nothing to chance , look at EVERYTHING that indicates where you are , not just one . The important part is the position of what I've called the " LONG HOLE " that will tell if the cam is on the fireing stroke and not on the back side . And to look for what is causeing his problem BEFORE he takes things apart or makes adjustments and by doing so destroys the evidence I guess you might call it . The things I've told him to look for are more to determine what the problem is than anything else . BUD

Canadian Hud

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

Slow down just a bit , we'll get there faster in the end . If it was running good , info on gear #s is good to know but not relevant in this case . You have the right gears or it would not have been OK before . Just eyeballing the cam gear will not likely tell you anything . Lets look at a couple of things before you dissturb anything . You have the cover off , turn the engine to where the one dot on the crank gear is between the 2 dots on the cam gear EXACTLY CENTERED. then look at the dist. rotor and see where it is at in relation to the plug wires on the cap . It should be on #1 . Also do the "LONG HOLE" check on the cam I explained earlier . Both the rotor and the long hole should be right on , the 7:30 position is not near there , it is THERE . Let us know what you find before you do anything else and we can be of more/better help . I check the computer in the morning /about noon and in the evening . BUD

I am getting something wrong

The dots on the gears line up. The flywheel mark is pretty accurate (maybe advanced a little). The rotor points to #1 when the dots on the gears and the timing mark are lined up. There doesn't appear to be any breakage or slippage on the fibre cam gear. The crank gear is the appropriate one to match the fibre cam gear. There aren't any teeth broken or missing. The bolts on the cam gear are at the "7:30 position". All looks good.

Yet, motor spins fast and won't start. It spins so fast I thought it was the starter when I first heard it, but the crankshaft turns over etc. so the starter is working. A neighbour put his finger in the spark plug hole and said there was no compression -- I didn't check it myself.

I am doing this alone and the car is parked 30 minutes away, so I work on it in fits and starts and I'm not able to stick my pinky in the spark plug hole and turn the car over at the same time, etc. Next week, a friend has agreed to come out and help. We'll start the diagnosis from scratch and see what we come up with.

Bummer. I must be driving you guys nuts. It will probably be something really simple -- doh!

53jetman

Geoff - Have you checked to determine if the valves are stuck in open possition? That's what this sounds like to me. I had this problem with my '33 Terraplane engine.

Jerry

53jetman

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

NO GEOFF , not you , the CAR !! On working alone, I use a remote starter switch you can get real cheap at the parts house . Hooks with alligator clips to neg bat post on neg GRD system and the small wire terminal on the starter. YOU CAN WATCH ANYTHING HAPPENING USEING IT . Or you can just use 2 wires and zap them together . OK, lets trash everything and start fresh when you get help or a remote switch . I expect to be gone next week , one of the guys supposed to get his block back from the machine shop that I've been helping , but there's allways somebody here to help . AGAIN , go slow , it's faster , don't change anything untill you talk to the guys on the forum , they may want to ask questions . Somebody or collectively an answer will be found . BUD

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

53jetman wrote:

Geoff - Have you checked to determine if the valves are stuck in open possition? That's what this sounds like to me. I had this problem with my '33 Terraplane engine.

Jerry

53jetman

---- SEE THERE !! Dang good idea . Pull the covers off the side and watch whats going on there when you turn it over . Check compression on ALL cylinders , and remember the valve does not have to be any more than barely open and there will be no compression so look at tappet clearance with a feeler gauge , the idea being a lifter can hang and you want to know if it's .008 or 1/8 inch . . If this is what it is lets hope its exhaust only , those you can use a wooden dowl and hopefully keep knocking them down till they free up . And Get that switch, you'll love it if you have to work alone .

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

53jetman wrote:

Geoff - Have you checked to determine if the valves are stuck in open possition? That's what this sounds like to me. I had this problem with my '33 Terraplane engine.

Jerry

53jetman

I think Jerry probably hit it right off , I've got one in the drive right now with zero compression on #3 . The guy's squaling busted piston , broken rod etc etc. NOT SO ! With a piece of tie wire I was able to find that the intake valve is stuck up against the head and the piston goes up and down . Gonna get at it after a coffee break , see if keepers came off , maybe broken valve spring .

OK. How about some tricks that somebody used that worked to free up Geoff's valves without some major dissassembly . ?

53jetman

The only right way to free up the stuck valves would be to remove the head, and gently persuade the valves to move. Probably have to remove the valves, and ream the valve guides slightly. Those old splasher engines tended to like to stick the valves when they were not exercised often. On my '33, I drove the car to a meet about four miles from my home. It set there all day, and when I went to start it up to drive it home, it was like there wasn't any pistons in the engine. The starter just wined and wined.

Jerry

53jetman

Clutch guy

A couple of things to add to this thread. First, I pulled out a couple of lower crankshaft timing gears that both have a "20" on them. One has a part# 166310 and the other doesn't?,don't really know why?. Next,is modern fuel. Modern fuel is very poor quality. iT WILL GO BAD IN 6 MONTHS. You can try to add fresh fuel to it but I have found it doesn't make the bad fuel -Good. Bad and/or stale fuel sticks valves. If your engine has relatively new valve guides,they are prone to sticking much easier than an engine with worn guides. This applies with about anything. Once the engine is warmed up real good,the varnish or gum melts and seems to let the valves not stick but once it cools off and allowed to set for a few hours,the valves get pushed open and this is where they stay. I mention this because while restoring your car,which might take a few years in some cases,the fuel in the tank goes bad and will cause as I have explained. This has been my experience more than once. It has happen just recently on a car from Alabama. The customer said he had had the tank professionally done and knew that there was no problem with it. As soon as he finally got it started,there is no mistake for stall fuel smell. As a partial solution, I have been adding a product called "seaform"which has been on the market for several years. I stopped using all the rest. Read the directions on the label,and it does do what it says it will do!! I use it in the oil,fuel stabilizer and as a very good top engine lubricant. It was originally designed for marine apps,and does get rid of moisture like no other I have ever used. Good luck Geoff with furthering your diagnoses.

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2010 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

GEOFF , I'm gonna side with the soakem and give em a twist down by the spring/tappet guys That SEAFOAM stuff RON mentioned is good stuff . SEAFOAM is a brand , not a product , all their stuff is good . KROIL is a new one on me , never seen it in our local parts houses ,where do you get it ? Thanks to all on this and the other thread , HUDSON GUYS ARE THE BEST . BUD

bobdriveshudson

You can google Kroil or type in http://www.kanolabs.com/ to view their web site and products in Nashville, Tennessee. I have been there and purchased a gallon for my own use. Bob

Canadian Hud

"On my '33, I drove the car to a meet about four miles from my home. It set there all day, and when I went to start it up to drive it home, it was like there wasn't any pistons in the engine. The starter just wined and wined."

Oh crap. That sounds just like my problem. I guess I know where to look next

ClassicCar

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

We'd love to hear from you! info@classiccar.com