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In this Discussion
- dman88 January 2009
- hrallan January 2009
- Oldcar_Mechanic January 2009
67 LeMans GTO
-
Hey im kinda looking into this for my uncle so if my information / understanding is a little off that is why. so i am also trying to learn more about the car myself. Hes got as stated above a 1967 Tempest LeMans with GTO package. According to the VIN it is a GTO. I have pictures to show body and interior. The car is running, and has original engine in it. Im trying to figure out what the car can run for. My uncle is a little strapped for cash and unfortunately needs to sell it, but isn't sure how much he should sell the car for.
VIN = 242177P212867
http://s542.photobucket.com/albums/gg428/dkoester88/
pictures my uncle sent me check them out -
VIN#:
2 = Division. In this case Pontiac
42 = Series = GTO
17 = Body Style = 2 Dr. Hardtop
7 = Year = 1967
P = Assembly Plant = Pontiac, MI
212867 = Production = They started the year at 100001 for V-8's
600001 for 6 cyl's
Also, I could not get your link to work
Ron -
strange the link works fine for me on 2 other computers. Ill work on it and see if i can get a different one up there.
I guess the reason i am confused as to what the car is, and what i can go for is the body itself. The Grill is missing the additonal head lights and the GTO emblem. On the side rear pannel it says LeMans. But the VIN number he gave me makes it a GTO. i know the GTO was offered as an upgrade package. I guess im just confused as to what the heck i would call this car.
thanks for the response. -
Sorry dman, I think it was my fault. I started having issues with my computer. I am on my laptop now and no problems at all.
I don't understand the confusion. What is the style number on the body tag on the cowl? The GTO was a stand alone body and not just a package. In 1966 it was called the Tempest GTO, but in 1967 it became a body style unto itself. I don't believe that Lemans was anywhere on the car like yours is. It should have GTO emblems on the rear quarters and on the left front grill.
Of course anything could have happened to the car over the years. Did your uncle buy the car new?
Along with the style number from the body tag, post the numbers on the front face of the block on the passenger side just below the head.
I understand that there is a lot of misprinted information out there and I may even have some of that.
Hope this helps
Ron -
The confusion im having is determining which car model it is. The VIN makes it a GTO but the rear quarters on it make it a Tempest. Im not sure how long my uncle has had it, what hes done to it, and for that matter what someone before him has done to it. He calls it a GTO but Ultimately i need to find the data plate and get the numbers off of it to make sure the numbers matches the VIN. I'm going to try to get these numbers as soon as possible but communication is slow with my uncle at the moment. I really appreciate your input! Thank you very much.
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The body plate should be on the cowl, drivers side faceing the front right by the master cylinder.
I'd be curious to see what it says
Ron -
When you say body plate, is that the same thing as the data plate? (im learning as I go)
I will post when i hear from my uncle. like i said communication is slow with him, so it could be a few days before i get the numbers, which likewise i am curious to see what they are.
Couple of side questions
When a car is "matching numbers" what exactly does that mean? Data plate to VIN? or is there more to it? what does this car need to have in order to be matching?
Also:
You wouldn't by chance be able to tell what kind of engine that is, strictly by that picture could you? -
I'd be curious as to what the data plate says on this car as well. It's very surprising (at least to me) that the vin says it's a GTO. Cosmetically the car is a LeMans with a GTO hood. There is definitely some confusion about this car.
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Matching numbers means that there are numbers in the VIN that match numbers on the engine block.
I would guess that the engine is a 389. Look in the red area and take the numbers that are there and post them. I should be able to tell you what engine and approximate year it is.
Ron -
According to the cars title, the car is listed as a Tempest but VIN on the title which is listed above (making it a GTO) is where the confusion originally beings. Im waiting to hear back from uncle on confirmation of the VIN but as right now it is -9degrees out and covered with ice.
He was able to get the Casting number Letter Code and Data plate information. From this I know now the car is NOT a GTO but a LeMans.
Casting Number: 365269YZ
Letter Code: DN
Data plate: ST67-23717 PON BODY T-2 2080 TR223-V
WTWG4F5Y
I believe all the information above is correct , so what does this mean exactly?
secondly, im curious, could there possibly be a legality issue at hand? If numbers dont match watch the title says? -
Did you ge the VIN number from the title? or the car itself? Does the number on the door hinge pillar match the title?
If your casting number (as you call it) was taken from the area that I showed you in the picture, then the engine is: 1967 400C.I. - 360 H/P - 10.75:1 compression - 4 BBL Carb special V-8 for a GTO and Hydra-matic Transmission.
If your VIN number on the door plate (VIN Number) matches the title, you're OK. Just because an engine number does not match doesn't mean an illegal problem, i.e, my Olds blew and engine early in life and was rplaced by the dealer. At that time, there was no concern to stamp the VIN numbers into the block so mine do not match, but the VIN tag on the dash (that's where mine is located) matches my title.
Data Plate = ST67 = Model year 1967
23717 = 2 Dr. Hardtop Coupe, Le Mans
Series 2= Pontiac, 3717 Le Mans
PON = Appears to be Pontiac MI. Build. I am unsure of the "N" though.
Body = T-2 2080 ?????????
Tr = Trim and 223 was Black Vinyl Buckets (Bench was a 235 code)
I don't know what the "V" represents.
WTWG4F5Y = ??????????? Where did you get his number from?
Interesting things:
It is a Tempest body with a GTO hood as hrallen has said.
It has the upgraded engine. (Standard Tempest came with 6 cyl engine and could be upgraded to V-8 GTO. Base engine for GTO was 400 C.I. with 335 H/P.
GTO was a 242 Series not a 237.
You could get GTO Options for the Tempest:
GTO Console = $68
GTO Tailpipe extensions = $21
This car may have been bought as a Le Mans by the dealer and converted to the GTO by them, minus the grill and emblems on the front fenders behind the front wheels. Hard to imagine though.
This is a Body Tag or Data Plate. If you could get a picture of it that would be perfect so that we are all taling about the same thing. Also, they are sometimes a little hard to read in the wrong light. A closeup would be perfect.
Hope this helps
Ron -
Hey Ron, I got some more pictures. Everything you were asking for accept what you had circled in red. it was hard enough to see with my own two eyes let alone take a picture of it. but the number does read 365269YZ.
Vin # on title matches Vin # in door panel, but the car itself is a LeMans. Thats why im confused? im assuming the car must have been a rebody at some point?
Casting number is DN, little hard to see but thats what it reads.
what could this car sell for? or is it really up to the buyer and what they would be willing to pay?
appreciate the help!
http://s542.photobucket.com/albums/gg428/dkoester88/ -
******************************bump*****************************
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Some great photos dman.
The "YZ" confirms that the engine is a GTO 400c.i. 360 HP
Looks like it was a tempest that someone put the optional things for GTO inside, the GTO hood and a GTO 400. That 400 in the GTO was built with an automatic.
It's hard to give an opinion as to the worth without looking closely at the car. How are the areas that are prone to rust? How are the mechanicals of the car? It appears that there is a substantial amount of work to make it a highly finished vehicle so that will affect the price. One thing you could do, is put it on e-bay with a high reserve and see where it goes. It may not give the price you think though because right now people are looking for the deals. They want the cars that people have to sell to get some money due to the economy.
I had a buddy that bought a 67 LeMans like yours. It was probably the same color or very close. Tyrol Blue Poly. I loved that car and was going to buy it as soon as I was out of the service. I ended up buying a 66 Dodge instead before I went in.
Keep me posted as to what you want to do with the car. I am always looking for a project car to keep me busy.
Ron -
I have more photos. i just uploaded them. Dont have any underneath the car ( you'll see why in other photos) I know the car does need work for it to be completely finished as far as what that work entails i couldnt tell ya. only thing i know about the car the odometor either is messed up or has been disconnected.
I also looked up the engine code and found that the YZ meant AUTO as well but didnt think that was possible because his car is stick but i guess it was converted.
i have another question, if the car was converted from the dealer...to have the 400 engine in it why would the car still have the 326 emblems on it? im sure there are a number of reasons as to why this could be, but im just curious as to what you think. Also, given what you have seen do you believe this car to be a dealer modified job or that someone could have converted it themselves. He has the "original" (and by original i mean the grill also came with the car when he got it, i dont think he replaced it) grill hanging up in his garage, but it is the same LeMans grill (only in red) so the car has been painted alteast once, and my uncle belives that the car was originally white. from those numbers i gave you what would you say the original color of the car was?, im not sure why that gril was removed and replaced with the grill you see in the photos though... -
I think that the car was altered after bought.
It's a funy thing you mention the paint. The code "T-2" actually shows that the car was painted "Montego Cream" with a vinyl top. But as I look at the pictures I can not see any tell-tale signs. If you look around the edges, like mouldings and glass and trim you may be able to see some signs. If it was re-painted, someone did a great job as proof when looking under the hood around the fender edges and along the cowl.
Maybe the grill hanging up was a spare that he got a deal on.
Ron -
Oldcar_Mechanic wrote:I think that the car was altered after bought.
It's a funny thing you mention the paint. The code "T-2" actually shows that the car was painted "Montego Cream" with a vinyl top.
Ron
So your saying the top also was replaced? -
No, I think the car came with the vinyl top.
According to the paint code though it should not be Blue. The approximate color that you have on the car I would guess should be a code "F".
Have you looked closely to see if you can tell that the car was repainted?
Ron -
no i haven't gotten a chance to really take a closer look at the car. im out at school right now and unfortunately I wont get a chance to see the car again a least till the spring. when we took the more updated pictures it was -20 and dark, not prime time for doing anything to in depth.
