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In this Discussion
- 51hornetA January 2009
- BADHUDSON January 2009
- BJ__TN January 2009
- bobdriveshudson January 2009
- frankmn January 2009
- furblog January 2009
- Harry Hill January 2009
- Heart Of Texas January 2009
- J Spencer January 2009
- jjbubaboy January 2009
- Ken U-Tx January 2009
- mars55 January 2009
- Nevada Hudson January 2009
- Richie January 2009
- RL Chilton January 2009
- Sarah Young January 2009
- silverone January 2009
- super651 January 2009
Problem with New Master Cylinders on Ebay
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Hello, I had removed the old master cylinder from my '53 Hornet Coupe, and laid it alongside the new one I purchased from Ken Cordle via Ebay ("Pokiesparts"). The new master cylinder is 5/8" shorter than the NOS master cylinder at the outlet end, thus the original brake lines will not fit to the brass dual outlet adapter. See picture at link below:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30581523@N00/3164230701/
Has anyone else used one of these master cylinders on their Stepdown, and if so, how did you address the brake line issue?? Also I am concerned that the 5/8" shorter stroke of the new master cylinder could render Hudson's patented "Double Safe" mechanical backup braking system inoperative in event of a hydraulic failure. Any ideas or input on this? Does Mr Cordle have an email that I can contact him at, as I'm hearing impaired? Thanks, Kenneth Ufheil -
Ken, I just got one also and, was about to ask the same?
Thanks to all Rudy -
I got mine yesterday and will be interested in how this is handled also. It will be a while before I try to install it, so I'll just pay close attention to this thread. Richie.
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You guys should ask Bill Albright I know he sells MC might be this item he can probably tell you whats what.www.hudsonmotorcar.org
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How hard will it be to make a longer line going to the MC? It could be the stroke difference won't make a difference but I'm not sure. Does the push rod match?
Harry -
Hi all:
Bought a couple almost a year ago, put one on a Model A F__d. Seems to work since it was converted to hydralics. Havent used the other yet. Glad to see this thread. Good luck to all. Hudsonly, Bob -
I just looked back through my pics to see how I installed the m/c on my 49. The one on the 49 was purchased from O'Reilly's about a year and a half ago and matched the one I took off. The one from e-bay is different just like the one Ken U pictured. Here is a pic of the one from O Reilly's Auto Parts. Richie.
IMG_0145aaa_123112348748371.jpg360 x 270 - 74K -
It appears the master cylinder that Mr Cordle sent me is a MC2796 as seen here: http://partimages2.genpt.com/partimages//549082.jpg
The master cylinder for the Stepdowns is MC3081 as seen here: http://partimages2.genpt.com/partimages//549121.jpg
Seems that someone on the forum got all excited about MC2796 , claiming it was a match for the Stepdown master cylinder, and others went along with it, possibly including Mr Cordle. I hope these photos, and visits to NAPA and Oreilly websites will settle this matter, and end the confusion. The correct part # for the Stepdowns is MC3081.
Here are the web pages for these parts on both NAPA and O'reilly:
http://www.napaonline.com/NOLPPSE/(S(kfstsgicjrjjhy551pjzpy3h))/Detail.aspx?R=UBP3081_0159884584
http://www.oreillyauto.com/EW3/ProductDetail.do?id=155600419&line=BB&itemNumber=MC3081&exactItemNumberIndex=View%20All%20Matches&didSearchFor=MC3081&bid=1231047082854&cycleCount=1090¤tPage=0 -
I guess that sums it up Ken, thanks. Richie.
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Thanks for the Pacemaker picture, Richie. Yep, that is the O'reilly MC3081 in there, and it's correct. Cordle was sending out MC2796's for some reason, it may have been a mistake or confusion on his part. Let's see how he responds to my message to him via Ebay. I'll keep you posted. Kenneth
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Ken U-Tx wrote:Thanks for the Pacemaker picture, Richie. Yep, that is the O'reilly MC3081 in there, and it's correct. Cordle was sending out MC2796's for some reason, it may have been a mistake or confusion on his part. Let's see how he responds to my message to him via Ebay. I'll keep you posted. Kenneth
You are welcome Kenneth, it would be nice if he would exchange them for the correct ones. I'll be interested in what he says. Thanks again. Richie. -
Ok
Ken after selling these by the thousands only a few people noticed the difference. The replacement is shorter on the line end not the end where you lose stroke!. this master cylinder works fine just install lines then position master cyliner and install the 2 bolts(may take some muscle) If you are unhappy I will give you a full refund and any one else who is unhappy) I am a fair person. The 3081 casting is no longer available to anyone I am told, so this is what we have short of leftovers or NOS or resleeve and rebuilt ones. Again These work Perfectly. Look closely at picture and you will see you are only losing a piece of wasted space in the master cylinder not stroke as you are thinking. Let me know what you decide to do. Like I said I have sold literally thousands with maybe 4-5 complaints. the rod end of the master cylinder is correct -
BadH, is the inside chamber of the master cylinder the same length on both master cylinders? I think that is the worry. If the chamber is actually shorter won't that affect the amount of brake fluid that gets to the wheel cylinders? Or is the end of the original just wasted space as you suggest? I don't have either to measure so I don't know. I believe though that these are the same on my 55 so I may need to know this in the future.
Harry -
same stroke on both. the maunfactor told me I never actually measured but neve had any problems either. If you are a nit picker yes they are different but they have the same performance, I hope none of my master cylinders in my car ever need the LAST 5/8" of stroke? that would be scry anyway you look at it!!!
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Ken-U another problem with the master Cylinder is that it is listed as 1 1/8" inch bore. The correct size is I' I am not an expert on hydralics but I know that this can have an effect on the operation of the brakes. Someone may be able to explain this better. I am thinking that with the larger master you will have more volume (flow) but less pressure at the wheel cylinders. Like a garden hose 1/2 inch has less flow / more pressure 5/8 has more flow / less pressure.. Hope someone else can chime in and give better details on this
Jim Spencer -
Jim, it doesn't quite work out that way. I half inch hose with a 50lb pressure is the same as a 5/8 hose with 50lb pressure. The half in seems higher because it is pushing out the same pressure through a smaller area. Actually the flow will be less also do to friction but against a static head the pressure will read the same. With the master cylinders the amount may be the same with a 1 1/8 bore with the stroke 5/8 less as the 1" bore with the plus 5/8. I haven't done the math. I think the smaller bore will have a slightly higher volume, maybe less that 1/10 cubic inches.
Harry -
BADHUDSON wrote:same stroke on both. the maunfactor told me I never actually measured but neve had any problems either. If you are a nit picker yes they are different but they have the same performance, I hope none of my master cylinders in my car ever need the LAST 5/8" of stroke? that would be scry anyway you look at it!!!
BadH, depending on how long the stroke. On a 2" stroke 5/8 is 20% of the total, in my book that is a lot of the braking capacity. With a larger bore though some of that is mitigated so it may not make as much of a difference. It's all relative.
Harry -
OK, I now realize the stroke is the same for both cylinders, due to the pushrod itself bottoming on the 1-1/8" diameter washer that is in turned retained by the spring clip. So the extra 5/8" is indeed redundant. However, I did try forcing the brake line that goes to the rear axle forward 5/8" to see if it would, in order to fit onto the adapter as it would be fitted on the new master cylinder, if it was fitted. I did not fit the new master cylinder as I didn't want to mar it and most suppliers will not exchange or refund a part that was fitted to the car. Well, that rear steel line won't move that far forward even with quite a bit of prying by hand, and I'd be very wary of damaging the line or stressing it to the point of a future failure by force fitting it to the new MC2796 master cylinder. And the 3081's are available new from NAPA and O'reilly, so I will go with the MC3081.
The hydraulic bore on the new 2796 master cylinder is 1", same as the 3081, not 1-1/8" as was stated by someone. The 1/1/8" you measure at the pushrod end is the counterbore for the retaining washer that is held down by the spring circlip. I guess I will return the new master cylinder to Mr Cordle, as it will be useful to someone, either Ford, Willys, or another Hudson if they are making new brake lines, or are willing to force fit the original lines. -
Two things on this. One the MC2796 master cylinder is listed in Louis Backhus's Hudson Swaps Manual as being for a Jet. Second the MC3081 master cylinder is still listed in the Raybestos and Wagner catalogs and is available.
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Ken U-Tx wrote:It appears the master cylinder that Mr Cordle sent me is a MC2796 as seen here: http://partimages2.genpt.com/partimages//549082.jpg
The master cylinder for the Stepdowns is MC3081 as seen here: http://partimages2.genpt.com/partimages//549121.jpg
Seems that someone on the forum got all excited about MC2796 , claiming it was a match for the Stepdown master cylinder, and others went along with it, possibly including Mr Cordle. I hope these photos, and visits to NAPA and Oreilly websites will settle this matter, and end the confusion. The correct part # for the Stepdowns is MC3081.
Here are the web pages for these parts on both NAPA and O'reilly:
http://www.napaonline.com/NOLPPSE/(S(kfstsgicjrjjhy551pjzpy3h))/Detail.aspx?R=UBP3081_0159884584
http://www.oreillyauto.com/EW3/ProductDetail.do?id=155600419&line=BB&itemNumber=MC3081&exactItemNumberIndex=View%20All%20Matches&didSearchFor=MC3081&bid=1231047082854&cycleCount=1090¤tPage=0
Called the local NAPA store yesterday, and asked for an MC3081 master cylinder. The girl at the counter said they had none on the shelf, but could have one for me by morning. I told her bring in two.
Next morning, she calls me and says they're here, I go down and take a look, --- yep, they're MC3081's, plunks the money down, and take 'em home. Simple as that.
Wish all the parts I'll need were that simple !
Many thanks Ken for the part #. I was thinking of doing the ebay thing too, but glad I didn't now, --- especially knowing a Guy sometimes gets stiffed on those shipping charges by the sellers.
silverone -
Funny how this started as a simple question, now I have a club member who installed one 2 yrs ago and is happy with the performance and braking it provides but is now scared out of his wits it may not work properly? and wants a refund. I told Him to return it for a full refund. (its 2+ yrs old) and on the car. And yet you guys wonder why the club is dwindling and people quit making parts? It is a hard business and I have done it for yrs with and without the club on this forum. If you bought one from me anytime in the past just return it and buy one elsewhere. and by the way I charge $9.00 shipping in US and often loose on shipping so my shipping is not inflated.
-
BADHUDSON-
Not everyone is the same. If you get that one back, send it to me and I'll pay you full price plus whatever shipping is necessary to cover it. I'll use it and not try to return it, you have my word on it. -
Badhudson,got mine installed and,it works just fine. Works better than the old one. Very Pleased Rudy
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I have purposely watched and not commented on this post until now. I will say this, Hudson replacement parts are difficult to find on a good day, never easy. Identifying and sharing interchangeable parts with the rest of the HET community is a special part of our hobby. Obviously when the interchange is found the user risks the possibility that part may not fit or function as the original. I believe the need for replacement master cylinders is being filled well by Badhudson's sales. Obviously they work for some as evidenced by Super651's post. And I am equally aware the difference in castings is sufficient for others to reject use of the same part.
In 2006 I posted on this BBS a Hudson interchange part number for master cylinders. That same part number is being sold by Badhudson. In that post, I stated the part number was for a replacement casting which was offered with a lifetime warranty by a local Texas automotive parts store. Some who saw my post, were quick to point out the casting number I listed was the same as a Jet replacement part. Furthermore some said that part would not work in a Stepdown application. For the record: I have the "JET" casting in my Stepdown Hudson. The part was a direct bolted in and hooked up just like the OEM casting and I have excellent brakes. The Master Cylinder I removed was manufactured by Wagner Lockheed and is the same physical size. This casting has an entirely DIFFERENT casting number!
Some who posted in response to my original post supported Badhudson’s offering thinking the part was the original casting. These same folks are using those purchases in the restoration of their Stepdown Hudson brake systems.
So, I offer the following; if the part has a wart that bothers you, make the wart known. If the part has a wart but still allows the replacement part to function as the original then support those who offer that part.
Best Regards to all HETers who visit here and read this post.
Cheers from HOT -
I have enjoyed reading and seeing the different opinions about the master cylinders. I met Mr. Kenny Cordle last Oct 2008 and have purchased two master cylinders (one to be installed in the future on a Hudson). I believe that they are of good quality(using one on a Model A now) Mr. Cordle donated some free stuff to be given away at the Hudson meet in Pigeon Forge last Oct. I think we should encourage him to continue to sell Hudson products, others may quit some day. Hudsonly, Bob
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Ken, I agree that if the part works there is no reason not to use it. I don't think Badhudson helped himself though saying the originals were no longer being made. When he said that he openned himself up to anyone who could still buy the original number. All he really had to say is what he has said now, this is what he sells and he stands behind his product. That's good enough for me. I would use his master cylinder if I needed one and couldn't find the right one. It is sure close enough if someone isn't doing a concourse restoration.
Harry -
RL Chilton wrote:BADHUDSON-
Not everyone is the same. If you get that one back, send it to me and I'll pay you full price plus whatever shipping is necessary to cover it. I'll use it and not try to return it, you have my word on it.
Russell, if you are in Tx, I'll sell the one I have to you for $50 and ship it US mail for about $7. would save me and Ken Cordle some trouble. If anyone else wants the MC2796 master cylinder for $50 + $7 shipping, let me know, first come , first served. Kenneth -
Hey all,
Well put Ken!
I also bought one of his masters for my 36T and have had no problems and am completely satisfied and happy with it.
I was thankful to find it in my early stages of working on her over a year ago before I knew so much about parts the WTN and all the contacts and help here. I was also happy about the price and I felt it was very good value for my money. Isnt that what its all about as well.
Keep up the great parts and I will buy from you anytime!
T Jeff -
BADHUDSON wrote:Funny how this started as a simple question, now I have a club member who installed one 2 yrs ago and is happy with the performance and braking it provides but is now scared out of his wits it may not work properly? and wants a refund. I told Him to return it for a full refund. (its 2+ yrs old) and on the car. And yet you guys wonder why the club is dwindling and people quit making parts? It is a hard business and I have done it for yrs with and without the club on this forum. If you bought one from me anytime in the past just return it and buy one elsewhere. and by the way I charge $9.00 shipping in US and often loose on shipping so my shipping is not inflated.
When I mentioned high shipping charges from some ebay sellers, I wasn't thing of you BADHUDSON, I was thinking of another post from someone who had bought something from a seller that turned out to live just a few blocks from the buyers home, in the same town, but the seller still insisted on the $14 bucks or whatever it was for shipping, on top of the selling price of the article, even though the buyer asked if he could just drop by and pick it up !!
I've had to cough up fifteen bucks for an envelope with a couple gaskets in it, bought through ebay, but that's the way it goes sometimes -- if you need the parts, you pay the price ! Nine bucks to ship a master cylinder seems plenty fair to me -- they're heavy little devils !
silverone. -
I have the MC2976 on my '54 Hornet Special sedan, It also has the LaBud Disc Brakes in front and I have had no problems in over a year. As far as I'm concerned, Anybody that wants to crawl under the car and inspect the MC is welcome to do so. As for me, It works, I don't care if it is concourse or not, cause I drive my cars.
Bob -
just some humor in a way. next time you are at a car show or a cruise in walk up to a bunch of street rod guys and tell them how this sucks that you had to make a new brake line for your all you do is bolt on new master cylinder so you had to return it and listen for a reply. you guys have it soooo rough. lol
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Does anyone know the correct part number for a Jet master cylinder? I think it might be different than the full size Hudsons.
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Nevada Hudson wrote:Does anyone know the correct part number for a Jet master cylinder? I think it might be different than the full size Hudsons.
Here's the information I have on the Jet replacement parts:
Master Cylinder: Wagner Lockheed cast # F2796 / MC2796, Neihof K2796 (Same as 61-66 Jeep Dispatcher)
Master Cylinder Rebuild Kit: NAPA 137, Raybestos MK137, Neihof K11300, also from Clifford's at 909-734-3310Take a Ride in a Hudson Jet! -
Nevada Hudson wrote:Does anyone know the correct part number for a Jet master cylinder? I think it might be different than the full size Hudsons.
Ray the correct number for the Jet is MC2796. That's what I was sent by Mr Cordle. I need a MC3081 for my '53 Hornet, as I cannot get the brake lines to force fit to the MC2796, like others were suggesting. I also don't feel like I should have to make new lines to fit a master cylinder that was represented to be correct. If anyone would like this MC 2796 I have (never installed or fitted, just taken out of box to compare to the Wagner 3081), I'll sell it for $45 and ship for about $7. Kenneth -
Heart Of Texas wrote:I have purposely watched and not commented on this post until now. I will say this, Hudson lexus parts are difficult to find on a good day, never easy. Identifying and sharing interchangeable parts with the rest of the HET community is a special part of our hobby. Obviously when the interchange is found the user risks the possibility that part may not fit or function as the original. I believe the need for replacement master cylinders is being filled well by Badhudson's sales. Obviously they work for some as evidenced by Super651's post. And I am equally aware the difference in castings is sufficient for others to reject use of the same part.
In 2006 I posted on this BBS a Hudson interchange part number for master cylinders. That same part number is being sold by Badhudson. In that post, I stated the part number was for a replacement casting which was offered with a lifetime warranty by a local Texas automotive parts store. Some who saw my post, were quick to point out the casting number I listed was the same as a Jet replacement part. Furthermore some said that part would not work in a Stepdown application. For the record: I have the "JET" casting in my Stepdown Hudson. The part was a direct bolted in and hooked up just like the OEM casting and I have excellent brakes. The Master Cylinder I removed was manufactured by Wagner Lockheed and is the same physical size. This casting has an entirely DIFFERENT casting number!
Some who posted in response to my original post supported Badhudson’s offering thinking the part was the original casting. These same folks are using those purchases in the restoration of their Stepdown Hudson brake systems.
So, I offer the following; if the part has a wart that bothers you, make the wart known. If the part has a wart but still allows the replacement part to function as the original then support those who offer that part.
Best Regards to all HETers who visit here and read this post.
Cheers from HOT
Yep. I will also look for some useful rep parts this weekend. I often got some minor issues regarding with some castings though.
