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middletom

I read recently in Road&Track magazine an article about the new fuel economy standards passed by Congress and the article stated that there is one provison in the bill that would allow regulators to increase the ethanol content of gasolene to 20%. The author of he article, the Engineering editor, wrote that in that case older cars, lawn mowers and a good deal of other gas powered equipment could not run on such a high ethanol amount. He wrote that some engines could be retrofitted to run on that, but few would be able to be converted. Has anyone any idea whether a Hudson flathead engine could be retrofitted in that way, and, if so, how costly would that be?

Dave53-7C

Sounds like someone at R&T isn't thinking clearly. Do they somehow think that oil companies would supply fuel that could not be used in millions of vehicles and tools unless they were modified to use it. That's ludicrous. What economy are those guys living in?

middletom

If the government dictatd it, what say would the oil companies have in the matter? middletom

Ken U-Tx

Brazilians have been running their old aircooled VW's on 100% ethanol for decades. It mainly involves rejetting the carbs to larger jet diameters, as alcohol has lower energy density than gasoline. Alcohol has a much higher octane rating than gasoline , thus the timing can be advanced appreciably before the ping threshold. Im sure the Hudson's fuel system can be modified to run on 20% ethanol-gasoline mix. The only downside would be a drop in fuel economy in the neighborhood of 10-15%.

willy74

There was actually an article in either last month's Rod and Custom, or the month prior, about this. Someone might dig it up, as it was interesting. I'll try and remember to look for it.

faustmb

I was just told this week that my air cooled VW bus wouldn't run well on 10% Ethanol. I've been running it that way and it is fine. I dismissed it as BS anyway. It's a topic people will always feel strongly about, like synthetic oil use ,using unleaded fuel in older cars, and Marvel Mystery Oil.

Dave53-7C

middletom wrote:

If the government dictatd it, what say would the oil companies have in the matter? middletom

The government dictated seat belt interlocks in 1974 too, but they were gone in 1975.

There's a big difference in what looks good on the drawing board and what works in reality. Do you think the general public would simply aquiesce and toss all their old gas power vehicles and equipment to the curb because the government said to?

DaveFury

middletom wrote:

Has anyone any idea whether a Hudson flathead engine could be retrofitted in that way, and, if so, how costly would that be?

No problem if necc. Just need to fatten up the mixture a bit.

BJ__TN

One problem might be if you had some old fuel line. Alcohol can be harmful to older hose types. Just change to newer hoses, and rejet to a richer mixture. Then check timing, as was stated earlier, alcohol will tolerate a little more advance.
Bob

66patrick66

There has been a lot on the news locally about landscapers and mowing services spending LOTS of $$$ repairing carb and fuel systems on everything from weedeaters to $10K ZTR mowers because of E10. Plus, I know for a fact that my wife's '06 PT and many others I know have had a 20% reduction in mileage with that crap, versus 100% gasoline. And the vast majority of the lawn equipment that is being affected is NEW equipment, and other machines less than four years old.

But of course, our gub'mint knows best, dont'cha know!

junkcarfann

Its another example of the government trying to make life better, but causing more problems.

In another example of this, there is a huge problem now with blind people getting hit by cars because as they tap with their cane, they do not recognize the curbing edge at cross streets because the government has mandated that handicapped people in wheelchairs must have access. So the edges of sidewalks at cross streets are now slanted, thus essentially curbless, so the blind have no way of knowing they are about to step into traffic.

Bottom line...there sometimes is no solution to life's problems, which is why government's efforts to fix everything is not always the answer. Ethanol is another example of that.

Dave53-7C

Since oil consumption is on the decline, I see no logical reason to further the use of ethanol. However, I bet the "good ol' boys" in Washington who are for doing so are from agricultural states that produce corn and grains.

Who knows, maybe it's a conspiracy to get motorists to use more fast burning fuel and, in doing so, pay more in taxes to fund the bank bailout. :rolleyes: With winter on the way, we here will soon be suffering reduced mpg as soon as the "winter blend" hits the pumps. If ethanol content were to increase, I cringe at the thought of having winter mpg all year long.

Pacemaker500

One can get the get the extra power and mileage out fo the booze-gas if you can increase your compression ratio.

Alcohol engines are running about 15:1.

Even the shows on the Speed channel explain this to the audiences every once in a while.

SuperDave

Since the switch to 10% here in fl. my 262 Twin H started to run like crap. One or another of the WA-1s would flood, no power.. So i set the float levels at 5/8" instead of 1/2", That cured the flooding. Then I put jets and metering rods in the carbs intended for a 308. The power is a little better now.. Guess I need to mill the head too? Fuel mileage on the 2001 Mercury GM went from avg. in town of 19.7 to 17.6. Seems to run OK. Thanks to the computer.

nick s

SuperDave wrote:

Since the switch to 10% here in fl. my 262 Twin H started to run like crap. One or another of the WA-1s would flood, no power.. So i set the float levels at 5/8" instead of 1/2", That cured the flooding. Then I put jets and metering rods in the carbs intended for a 308. The power is a little better now.. Guess I need to mill the head too? Fuel mileage on the 2001 Mercury GM went from avg. in town of 19.7 to 17.6. Seems to run OK. Thanks to the computer.

I think superdave may have singlehandly sent energy prices skyrocketing this year and caused the collapse of the world economy.

lets look at the fantastic savings. every thousand miles, superdave is only using an extra 1/3 gallon of the oil based stuff (plus the energy required to convert the corn and combine the two, oh and there's the labor, oil, energy to grow, harvest and transport the corn)

SamJ

Many, many years ago, I worked for a low-end fuel distributor in Southern Ontario, Canada. In the winter the huge storage tanks had a "frost line" around the bottom, which told you how much water was in there. When it got up to 10 feet or so, (hundreds of gallons of H20), they drained it off, unfortunately, into Lake Ontario. As I seem to recall from my last mixed drink, alcohol and water mix perfectly. So I'm not a fan of high-percentage alcohol mixes. We should be moving towards clean diesel and electricity. Leave the gasoline alone. :cool:

SuperDave

SamJ wrote:

Many, many years ago, I worked for a low-end fuel distributor in Southern Ontario, Canada. In the winter the huge storage tanks had a "frost line" around the bottom, which told you how much water was in there. When it got up to 10 feet or so, (hundreds of gallons of H20), they drained it off, unfortunately, into Lake Ontario. As I seem to recall from my last mixed drink, alcohol and water mix perfectly. So I'm not a fan of high-percentage alcohol mixes. We should be moving towards clean diesel and electricity. Leave the gasoline alone. :cool:

Sam, you hit on the OTHER problem with alcohol. I noticed the gasoline/oil mixture in my red container I use for my chain saw gets cloudy in a day or so. It sometimes gets to the point that ithe saw won't start. My repair shop says the high humidity here (Florida 90+) gets absorbed into the alcohol/gasoline and renders it unburnable! I just switched to a 2cycle lawn mower as well. I have to start it with a shot of starting fluid!. I say we DRINK the stuff not try to burn it..

Turbopackman

The secret to power and economy on Ethanol is a higher compression. Case in point, on my 2002 VW Jetta, I get 30 mpg with either 91 octane straight or running 50/50 E85 and 87 octane gas (it's a 1.8L Turbo). I'm building a twin turbo Packard straight eight with the whole intention of running it strictly on E85. The trick is in the compression and adjusting the timing. All these "flex fuel" cars are just a crutch that doesn't take advantage of the 105+ octane of E85, nor the cooling effects of alcohol. My advice is if you're running strictly on alcohol, up the compression to about 14:1, either with a power adder such as a turbo, or by milling the heck out of the head. Once you get up to about 14:1 total compression, you'll see the benefits of using alcohol.

RL Chilton

Turbopackman wrote:

The secret to power and economy on Ethanol is a higher compression. Case in point, on my 2002 VW Jetta, I get 30 mpg with either 91 octane straight or running 50/50 E85 and 87 octane gas (it's a 1.8L Turbo). I'm building a twin turbo Packard straight eight with the whole intention of running it strictly on E85. The trick is in the compression and adjusting the timing. All these "flex fuel" cars are just a crutch that doesn't take advantage of the 105+ octane of E85, nor the cooling effects of alcohol. My advice is if you're running strictly on alcohol, up the compression to about 14:1, either with a power adder such as a turbo, or by milling the heck out of the head. Once you get up to about 14:1 total compression, you'll see the benefits of using alcohol.

And the added benefits of burned up pistons and worn out parts due to the high compression:D

RL Chilton

SuperDave wrote:

Sam, you hit on the OTHER problem with alcohol. I noticed the gasoline/oil mixture in my red container I use for my chain saw gets cloudy in a day or so. It sometimes gets to the point that ithe saw won't start. My repair shop says the high humidity here (Florida 90+) gets absorbed into the alcohol/gasoline and renders it unburnable! I just switched to a 2cycle lawn mower as well. I have to start it with a shot of starting fluid!. I say we DRINK the stuff not try to burn it..

It happens here, too. 2 cycle oil only lasts for 2-3 days here. I've gotten in the habit of only filling the weed-eater, chainsaw, blower, whatever with enough fuel for what I'm doing. When I'm done, I pour out any extra left in the tank and run it till it quits. Makes the equipment last much longer with less problems.

Turbopackman

RL Chilton wrote:

And the added benefits of burned up pistons and worn out parts due to the high compression:D

Uhh, no. Since alcohol runs a lot cooler than gasoline, it won't burn up pistons. As for the worn out parts from the high compression, just use good bearings, pistons, and rings and you'll have no trouble.

It's so funny how people knock something new without doing ANY research on the subject at hand. I suggest anyone who's interested to go out and find information on E85 and see for themselves. I'll even start you off: http://www.raceone85.com/

willy74

willy74 wrote:

There was actually an article in either last month's Rod and Custom, or the month prior, about this. Someone might dig it up, as it was interesting. I'll try and remember to look for it.

The article I was referring to in my quoted email above is called "New Fuel Meets Old School" and it's on page 80 of the Dec '08 issue of R&C. It talks about how these higher concentrations of ethanol in the fuel are having an effect of the fuel system in older cars, how some of the leather and rubber parts wear out very very quickly because of the ethanol content, solutions to fix it, replacement parts for various carbs that will work with the newer gas, etc. It also gives a list of shops that are already dealing with this issue.

I went to R&C's website, but couldn't find the article online.

Cheers,

middletom

I want to thank all who responded to my original question. It appears that if they should go to 20% ethanol, my Pacemaker could be modified without breaking the bank.

middletom

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