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In this Discussion
- 37 Terraplane#2 June 2008
- ejnovinsky May 2008
- Fallout78N June 2008
- Oldcar_Mechanic June 2008
1949 Cadillac Hearse
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I'm trying to start the engine in a 1949 Cadillac hearse, but the starter is, at best, unreliable. Also when the points are closed there doesn't seem to be a complete circuit, but that's a different problem. If anyone could tell me if there's a modern starter that would fit in a '49 Cadillac I'd do everything in my power to ensure that future generations erected statues and wrote songs in that person's honor. It bears mentioning that the engine is a 12v system rather than the 6v system that seems to be generally expected. I'm not a mechanic, I'm learning as I go, so the simpler, the better.
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you can have that starter rebuilt and will work as good as new. Not likely availeable at a parts house, but from a rebuilder, we have one about 20 milec away where I get mine done, small shop. Look in your yellow pages.
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I already had it rebuilt once. That took it from dead to working, but it seems like it may have died again. Either that , or it has blown out the ignition switch, which has already happened once. It just seems like it's trying a lot harder than it should to spin the engine, especially under compression.
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Keep that battery at full charge, low voltage is death on electric motors. Check all your cables and wires for clean /not rusted/corrodid conections . Why don't it start, got fuel THRU the carb where you can see it squirt when you work the accelerator ? Got spark that you can see arc from the wire to the spark plug ? Stick a phillips screw driver in the wire and hold it close to the plug tip .
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The battery was freshly charged when the starter gave out. As for why it won't start, that's the million dollar question there. There's no spark in the plugs. I've changed everything short of the distributor itself (rotor, cap, plugs, condenser points, ignition coil, and all the wiring inside and out) but I still can't get a spark. The points are gapped perfectly, but when they're closed the test light says there's no complete circuit on the non insulated (I think that's that right term) side. The non arm side in my language. As for fuel, there isn't even a fuel line at the moment. The old one turned to dust the second I touched it. I haven't bothered to replace it yet since I figured it was better to have a spark, before having gas to explode with it. Lest one build up and the other come by surprise.
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On a starter related note, I just noticed something in the wiring diagram about a "starter relay". Now I don't know what a starter relay is, what it looks like, or what it does, but I'm almost positive I've bypassed it. How much trouble could this cause?
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I think your first issue is to get the engine cranking normal. DO NOT crank for to long a period of time as the starter is not equipted for that. You say 12 volts? The starter also?
37 Terraplane has given the best advice. Make sure that the connections are clean and tight at all the cable ends and that they are located in the correct place.
Have you tried to crank the engine with all the spark plugs out of the engine?
DO NOT by-pass the starting switch with relay. You need to have that connected. You may have a bad relay. I have the test procedure for that if you want it but it gets a little complicated and you need to excersise caution so as not to burn anything out. Again, there are many wires and connections and they all need to be clean and tight.
When the points are closed, your test light not light if it is touched at the wire going to the points. That is because when you ground the points by closing them this allows the coil to build. When the points open, the light will light when touched to the wire going to the points. Watch the points as someone cranks the engine (I guess you first need to get that fixed) and you should see the points arching.
Don't get discouraged. Take it slowly and methodically. Ask all the questions.
Hope this helps
Ron -
I've got the starter working again. The problem ended up being a wrong gauge wire that shorted. Getting a spark from the points, however, continues to elude my sincerest wishes, and promises of eternal fidelity to Thor.
The starter is indeed 12 volts, along with everything in the car, and sometimes me, when I touch the wrong thing. I screamed "Marco" into the engine for several hours today, but nothing that struck me as a starter relay yelled anything helpful back. The wiring diagram only shows 2 thick posts on the starter solenoid, but I have a third, smaller one. Is that it? Also I've replaced the ignition with a modern generic one. It has a post labeled "Starter" that the original didn't. Originally a button handled engaging the starter and that ran through the relay, but this button and the original ignition have long since given up on life. So is this extra post on the modern ignition the starter relay instead? A third option is an "extra" solenoid, helpfully removed by my father, who fancys himself a mechanic just because he's been doing it for 30 years. He also declared the whole project, and by extension me, devoid of hope, and refuses to as much as consult on it anymore. Were it up to him the hearse would be in a scrapyard, and I'd use my garage to store a 94 Sunbird, with a literal bluebook value of zero. I can't ask him. Don't suggest it. I'm also off topic. The solenoid he polled off went form the tiny post on the starter solenoid to who knows where. I suspect to the starter button, but I have no evidence.
Anyway, here are what I hope will be helpful pictures:
The "extra" solenoid:
Composite photo of the whole engine:
Distributor with rotor:
Distributor without rotor:
Wiring diagram:
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m288/Fallout78N/1949Cadillacwiringdiagram.jpg
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The solinoid can be thought of as an electricaly operated switch. One big post is for bat and to your wireing harness, the other to your starter which would only have elect when cranking the engine, the small one goes to starter button or terminal on ign switch marked starter and when electricity is apllied it causes a circuit between the 2 big posts sending 12 volts direct to the starter from the bat. You only need one starter solinoid. Now that you have the starter working good start at that new switch and get 12 volts to the coil, one terminal is likely marked IGN, if no marking you can use any terminal that is "hot" at all times when the switch is on whether in starting mode or run mode,{ check both}., it goes to the + on the coil, assumeing you have a coil with a built in resistor. from the - terminal on the coil to the dist. Again good clean solid conections are critical. Once you have that circuit working you should be able to see the points flash when cranking the engine. If so then go to the plugs and check for spark there. Bud
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I appreciate all of the help I'm getting here, but we've yet to pin down whatever problem it is that's beating me relentlessly over the head. I have everything hooked up the way Terraplane has described, with the exception of a voltage regulator that he might have been unaware of. Rather than go into a wordy explanation of how I've hooked everything up, I made an ,admittedly, crude diagram of exactly how everything involved is wired up. Hopefully this will exceed my limited ability to explain the problem, and make it more clear.
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That looks good, BUT, if you don't have the regulater in the circuit how are you getting electric to your switch ?? Yes you could bypass it but you have to have it for things to work so why not hook it up ? Then with a multimeter you can buy for less than $10 start at the bat and check each connection for voltage and no shorts. Got to have a circuit of some kind from the bat term on the starter to bat term on the switch . Once you have voltage at all connections then you can start to look for the problem,one thing at a time from bat to spark plug in series. Looks to me like you have two short wires from your hot wire in the dist going to a ground, thats a short circuit, the hot wire needs to go to one side of the points only, then the other side of the points goes to your condenser and momentarily creates a ground to allow the coil to build voltage and create a spark. Get the two little short wires not going to your points out of there and see what happens.
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I see what hes talking about eric, the points rather than being grounded out intermittedly by the condenser are being grounded out all the time by the those 2 extra grounds...........pop em off and see what it does...I know there were wires there to start, because I replaced them with the ones on there now.........I beleive if the points are always grounded there would no way for the coil to build a charge, and hence your boy Mr. spark flips you the bird once again.....did you get the radiator hooked up yet?
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electricity behaves like water, it takes the shortest path, those 2 little wires are takeing it to ground instead of the points. A common problem with the old type wire was the covering on the wire going to the points frayed,went to ground ,causeing no spark. Haven't the least idea why they were put in before you guys got it, won't work.
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I'll try anything once. Twice on Saturdays. I'll try removing these wires the next time I work on it (this Saturday), and let you know how it works. For the sake of argument, though, where does the positive side of the current come into the distributor from? The shop manual I have clearly shows both the wires in question, in place, in the distributor, labeled "Connector lead" ,and "Ground Lead" respectively. I'm not about to say anybody's wrong until I try it out, but in the lack of specific knowledge of my own, I have to argue the side of the book, you understand. The wires we replaced were the original cloth wires, presumably there since some well meaning factory worker slapped 'em in place half a century ago. Anyway, I'll give it a shot without the wires, and check back Saturday.
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the wire on the side of the dist is the posative lead and should go to the points and come from the negative side of the coil . the condenser momentarily takes it to ground to build voltage and creat the spark.
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First of all, the purpose of the condenser is to hold a charge of electricity. It prevents excessive arching of the points and is like a shock absorber for the ignition system. It does NOT ground the ignition system.
Bud is correct on the wires. You need one wire coming from the negative side of the coil to the points. Any other wires inside the distributor are for ground purposes. They would go from the hold down screw (not the adjusting screw) to the side of the distributor for ground purposes. Most distributors are grounded to the engine block but some manufacturers had an aditional wire to ground the distributor. Any wire connected to the power wire (the one from the coil to the points) to a ground will not allow the ignition system to work.
Power flows from the coil to the points. When the points are closed, the voltage builds in the primary windings of the coil. When the points open suddenly the primary windings collapse across the secondary windings and voila, you have a voltage induced into the coil wire going to the distributor cap.
Once more. Have you had someone crank the engine while the distributor cap was off to see if the points spark? Do you have power at the coil positive all the time with the key on or in the cranking mode? Do you have power at the negative side of the coil when the points are open? That power will not be present when the points are closed because the power is grounded.
Ron -
Problem solved, gentlemen. The source of the distress turned out to be stupidity. More specifically, my stupidity. When I gapped the points, I did it right on, but when I re tightened the hold down screw, it increased the gap, so that they never closed. After that me and Mr.Spark partied all night. Whats more I replaced the jumbled mess of battery cables mixed with jumper cables that my "mechanic" father had spider webbed together to hook up the battery with a real setup, and now the starter runs like a champ. I'm sure that had no small part in coaxing the spark out of hiding. My brother and I spent some time dumping gas and carb cleaner into the carburetor, and got it to "poof" about half a dozen times, but it wasn't exactly clockwork, Should I completely disassemble and clean the carburetor? I'd like to avoid it if I can, because from what it looks like in the shop manual, it might be a bit past my ability right now. Or is there an easier way?
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Don't be so dagedy danged impatient !! First see if you got gas TO the carburator, if you have but it don't squirt nothin when you work the accelerator, pull the top only off and clean the float needle and seat and any remove crud in the gas chamber. Soften up the leather on the plunger a bit with some real light oil like 3 in 1, marvel,brake fluid, just don't get wild and strech the doogie out of it. put it all back and tyry it again for a squirt in the throat . Bud
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I've cleaned out the carburetor like you said. As for checking if it sprays gas when I hit the pedal. That'll have to wait till I have an assistant. I tried several times to hit the gas, and then run around the car to catch the action, but my inability to achieve faster than light speeds marred the results. I've got the fuel line hooked back up, and the engine sputters fairly regularly, but lazily refuses to start. Please don't ask me to take the carburetor apart again, because if I have to handle those microscopic pins that held the throttle arms in place again, I swear I'll sob like a little girl till God comes down, and does it for me. Could having the spark plugs hooked up in the wrong order be the culprit? It says in the manual that they're numbered starting with the front left being #1 and going back odd, and #2 being the front right and going back even. Do they mean front like I'm standing in front of the car, about to be run down, or from behind the wheel, wondering who the idiot standing in front of the car is?
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This picture is not the best. I hope you can make it out.
http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL619/3950667/12092299/320533642.jpg
18436572 is the firing order and the distributor turns counter-clockwise. -
I've got that in my shop manual. The problem is what do they consider the "front" of the car. I thought diagrams were set up to be looked at as if you were behind the wheel, but the way that one is drawn makes it look like you should be in front of the car.
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As you can see, the cap will only fit on the distributor a certain way. The thing that you need to look at is advance and that will tell you which way to install the wires.
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The cap is the same backwards as forwards. What matters is that you get the right holes matched up to the right plugs after you get it set in. The cylinder numbers is whats throwing me off. I'm not sure what counts as #1. It says front left, but what is front? Who's left? So to help me explain I've made another diagram. It'll make it easier I hope. You just tell me which setup is right. The manual says Front left is the #1 cylinder and it's 3, 4, and 7 back from there. Front right is #2, and it's 4, 6, and 8 back. Right now I've got it set up as "D" in the diagram.
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Yes, the cap can be put on either way. That does not matter. What matters is that you put the spark plug wires in the cap correctly. As you can see by the picture I posted it tells you the wire number going to a specific spark plug.
Left front is, left side of engine on the drivers side (D)
Front is, the end towards the radiator
Ron -
Yes, but in that same picture you posted there is an arrow indicating "Front" pointing from the direction FROM the firewall.
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Not to get off topic, but I have another annoying problem. The car has a bladder control problem. The new radiator hoses won't stop leaking around the clamps. This is especially annoying since it continues no matter how hard I tighten the clamps. Even to the point of breaking them. I've even tried 2 clamps at both ends, but nothing seems to make it want to stop. Can I gob gasket sealant on the pipes before I attach the hoses, or with that just make an ungodly mess?
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You don't say exactly where the leak is, i.e. at upper rad, at water pump, so I will have to say that the neck on the radiator is distorted. I would not use anything to help seal it.
Ron -
It's the lower radiator hose where it connects to the radiator and where it connects to the water pump. Both ends of it leak. What can I do about it?
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Apperantly the hose is too big, I'd get a differant hose but as a quick fix you can wrap some duct tape around the pump and radiator necks to make it fit better, build it up till it goes on snug. This will last if you don't care about it being there . Bud
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The hoses are definately the right size. I have to wrestle 'em on and off every time I try something new, they're so snug. That duct tape doesn't sound like a half bad idea though. Maybe a couple wraps of that will be enough to push it over the top.
