ClassicCar

silverone

I had a post from a new HC member a day or so ago, asking for advice on swapping a Ford flathead motor into his Dad's '52 Hudson convertible.

I certainly offered some comments of my own on this concept, but since Nick asked for advice, and opinions, I'm sure there's more than me who have some thoughts on this, even if its just to strengthen my own reflections.

Check it out at www.hudsoncollector.com - latest posts, top right hand corner.

Here's the quick way in - http://www.hudsoncollector.com/forum_viewtopic.php?4.690

silverone

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2008 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Silverone is correct in ALL respects, DO NOT TAKE THE CUTTING TORCH TO THAT CAR !! The flathead Ford would be a big dissapointment in it , not near enough power or torque to handle it. You have a real gem. If costs to get it on the road are a factor, I think I'd go with something that there are a lot of and scads of parts, that keeps the prices down. Small block Chev would be a good choice, or for that matter what ever you can get a good buy on that give enough power and NOT reguire any frame or sheet metal cutting to get it in. Just so long as it could be got back to totally Hudson, that car is in BIG demand !! A total restore at this point is not need to keep it's value,which will only increase if left to where it can one day be all Hudson if wanted. BUD

Aaron D. IL

Silver just responded to his post in your forum. He lives real close to my home base. If he's got the right serial number car is in fact a '53 Super Wasp Convertible. 5C

ralpie

If it is indeed a 53 SW Convertible.... when was the last time you saw one? Wonder what the ratio of these models to 52 Hornet convertibles remaining would be? Guess... heavy slant to the scarcity of the 5C convertible.

Cheers

bill a

Itsss The Only One I Ever Heard Of Pretty Rare??????????????

Aaron D. IL

Get this.... the Roster record I have lists only two entries that have any probability of being a '53 Super Wasp Convertible...and only 1 '53 Super Wasp Hollywood.......... bear in mind these being cars in the club that the club knows about or that the owners bothered to report. But that makes then exceptionally rare.

RL Chilton

Hi Nick!

Russell here from Texas. I haven't been on the forum for a while but when Ryan posted on our "other" Hudson board, I couldn't help but chime in. I'm actually all for modified Hudsons, I'm a Hudson and Hot Rod kind of guy. BUT, I would never, EVER modify a Hudson Convertible. I've got two of them now, both '52 Hornets. I'm currently right in the middle of restoration.

As to the rarity of your car, there were about 360 Convertibles made in '52, through 4 models. There are approx. about 20 '52 Hornet convertibles left today. There are also about 20 '53 Hornet Convertibles (some are of the opinion that there are even less, but I'm not one of them). Production #'s on '53's, unfortunately are not known at all, but there were even less made in '53 than in '52. A '53 Wasp Convertible is one of the rarest. I'd venture to guess there are somewhere between 5 and 10. I know many an old time Hudfolks who have only seen 1 or 2 in the last 30 years.

As to cost, modify or not, is going to be about the same. If you do 90% of the work yourself, you can plan on about 25K in expenses. Even if you farm out half the work, your probably into a total restoration for about 40K. This is entirely dependent on how much you want to do and what you start with in the beginning, of course. As far as an investment goes, a modified Hudson convertible is going to go for about what you have in it. A stock, fully restored Hudson Stepdown Convertible is currently and regularly going for 6 figures.

I can go on and have plenty more reasons, if you want, just let me know. E-maiil me if you want: russlynnacres@gmail.com

Love to see some pics, though!!

Russell Chilton

RL Chilton

Yeah, my 5-10 estimate might just be about 500% high.

nellis003

Hi, all. Exciting to see the buzz the car is getting already. I posted some pictures on the HusdonCollector.com site, if you want to see them here's the link:

http://www.hudsoncollector.com/forum_viewtopic.php?4.698

One of the pics is the serial number tag, so hopefully that should answer questions as to the year of the car. We're looking for the title from the auction sale, but it's been a couple of years and it's going to take some digging to find. My father swears it was sold to him as a '52, but like I said, it's been a couple years.

I just mailed off my HET dues, so we're ready to start planning the restoration. My dad's flathead Ford idea is history, especially in the wake of the strong reaction from anyone who heard the idea. Now the plan is to learn as much as I can about the existing engine and work off of that. I'm a sucker for a stock car, so I'm going to try and keep her that way as much as possible.

I'll post pics of the progress on the car, and if anyone has any advice or suggestions I'm all ears. Everyone's been really great so far, so thanks for that and thanks in advance for any future help.

Nick

ralpie

This is a very important find. But, the pictures do not clearly show elements that are found on all other Stepdown Hudson convertibles. There are no clear pictures of the convertible top mounting areas inside the car. These heavy metal mountings are present in both the Hollywood and convertible. In addition to these mounts the center of the rear floor should contain a well for the power top pump. I do not see this opening in the posted pictures., The serial number plate shows on a light background while the car appears to be dark. A picture of the ID plate which shows enough of the car to ID they are on the same vehicle is a necessity. Better pictures of the convertible header especially at the cowl. I have never seen a Hudson Stepdown convertible without the mechanical connections and the power top pump well. Unless I am overlooking them, this car is totally different from the rest of the breed. The Hollywood does not have the well, but will possess the heavy metal reinforcements without the convertible connections. All Hudson headers are interchangeable so a convertible header can be placed on a Hollywood body ... as has been done in the past.

Curiosity for me is peaked If this is truly an original 5C convertible... it is one of a kind and appears to have characteristics different from other Hudson convertibles. If it was made from a 5C Hollywood that is a shame too... another distint and very rare car.

Looking forward to more pictures.

Thanks

nellis003

Ken,

I'll see if I can get out there to take some more pictures tomorrow. In the meantime, can you be more specific about the areas you want to see? When you refer to the "header," am I correct in assuming you mean the windsheild frame where the top attaches? I'll also clear the parts out of the back section of the floor and see if I can get a shot that shows whether or not the pump well is there.

Since I'm not familiar with these cars, I don't know the Hollywood model very well. I've seen some pictures, and it appears to be a hardtop version but with a 3-section wraparound rear window. I'm guessing this is why that model would have the same reinforcements as the convertible, to make up for less sheet metal connecting the body to the roof section. Did the Hollywood model have the same wheelbase and dimensions as the Super Wasp?

The shot of the serial plate is genuine - I'll get another one that will show it with more of the car visible, but if you look at the firewall in the engine compartment, you'll see that it's the same color as the background in the serial plate shot. My guess is the outside of the car was painted black at some point, but they skipped doing the door wells, the firewall, etc.

Hopefully this will turn out to be a genuine convertible - I'd be pretty disappointed if it turned out to be a conversion.

Nick

Aaron D. IL

Heart_Of_Texas wrote:

This is a very important find. But, the pictures do not clearly show elements that are found on all other Stepdown Hudson convertibles. There are no clear pictures of the convertible top mounting areas inside the car. These heavy metal mountings are present in both the Hollywood and convertible. In addition to these mounts the center of the rear floor should contain a well for the power top pump. I do not see this opening in the posted pictures., The serial number plate shows on a light background while the car appears to be dark. A picture of the ID plate which shows enough of the car to ID they are on the same vehicle is a necessity. Better pictures of the convertible header especially at the cowl. I have never seen a Hudson Stepdown convertible without the mechanical connections and the power top pump well. Unless I am overlooking them, this car is totally different from the rest of the breed. The Hollywood does not have the well, but will possess the heavy metal reinforcements without the convertible connections. All Hudson headers are interchangeable so a convertible header can be placed on a Hollywood body ... as has been done in the past.

Curiosity for me is peaked If this is truly an original 5C convertible... it is one of a kind and appears to have characteristics different from other Hudson convertibles. If it was made from a 5C Hollywood that is a shame too... another distint and very rare car.

Looking forward to more pictures.

Thanks

Ken - You have a copy of Butler's book lying around? Does the literature indicate that '53 Super Wasp convertible was advertised as available in 1953 ?

hudsonkid

I think this is a bona fide 53 super wasp convertible. Look at the front doors, unless I am missing it, there are no punch outs for manual windows? Also, what I think is odd, and correct me if I am wrong, but does that car have a single lever (early straight stick) in it? and it looks like a 2 lever column.

Nice find, it at least looks solid, and the top mechanism is there. If you got a coupe parts car, and good window frames, and all the surround trim, you got a few of the hurdles down.

If you get tired of it, let hudsondad know, he would very much like a 52-3 wasp/super wasp convertible. This might be a bit more of a project than he is looking for, but it sure is cool.

I think I have seen a 53 SW convertible, but could be wrong.

46HudsonPU

The pictures on Silverone's site, reduced a bit -

46HudsonPU

Nevada Hudson

Wonder if Charlie Ackel's Wasp Convertible is still setting in his backyard in San Jose filling up with water and leaves!

ralpie

Nick

I will have to leave a brief note ... Wife and I are about to conduct an Easter Egg hunt for our Grandkids. If someone will point to the Hudson MSN site where Paul Schuster has posted the pictures of the restoration of BABY... there are clear pictures of the Pump well and the reinforcements for the top and ram cylinder attachments. The site also shows the Windshield frame... aka header too. The header is spot welded to the cowl. If hour cowl has holes punched for the top lines ... behind the front fenders... then you can rest assured that this car was originally a convertible. The other tell tale item will be the pump hole and the proper reinformcements for the rams. I will check back later and point you to the pictures if someone else has not done so before.

Happy Easter

dummy

Looking In The Price, Equipment And Option Folder For 1953. It Lists A Super Wasp Convertible Brougham. Priced At $3047.50 And A Weight Of 3655lbs. Also A Hornet Convertible Brougham For $3342.05 With A Weight Of 3760lbs. Wonder Why They End The Price With .05 Cents.

bill a

pics show a 52 hood ornament not the 53 scoop which was used on all 53s, BILL ALBRIGHT

bill a

li restored a 52 wasp conv, which came with rollup windows, however there were holes in the lower a pillar and doors for the hydraloc lines and power window wireing. these holess were filled with rubber plugs as were the lollywoods of the same era, if it were a factory conv the holes would be there, DBILL ALBRIGHT

nellis003

Here are the pics Ken was looking for:

http://www.hudsoncollector.com/forum_viewtopic.php?4.701

Thanks for any input as to the authenticity of the car.

Nick

Aaron D. IL

dummy wrote:

Looking In The Price, Equipment And Option Folder For 1953. It Lists A Super Wasp Convertible Brougham. Priced At $3047.50 And A Weight Of 3655lbs. Also A Hornet Convertible Brougham For $3342.05 With A Weight Of 3760lbs. Wonder Why They End The Price With .05 Cents.

So indeed such an animal was available. My guess is that for the price of such an upscale Super Wasp most new Hudson buyers simply opted to just get a Hornet, and there's probably weren't many sold new even. A fair assumption?

Nevada Hudson

Can anyone see if the fenders say "Super Wasp" or "Wasp"?

silverone

Nevada Hudson wrote:

Can anyone see if the fenders say "Super Wasp" or "Wasp"?

Yes, the front spear on the fenders say "Super Wasp".

402Bowtie

It's definitely a convertible!! It has the tack strips around the rear for the canvas top to be tacked. Plus the header has holes for the clamp bracket for the top header bow. Life doesn't get any better than this!!!

hudnut1tmr

Nick,

I don't see the well for the hydralic pump but as Bill said, it could have had manual windows. Whatever, congratulations to you and your father for a nice find. You can count on a lot of help from the local Hudson folks!

Tim

nellis003

Is there any way to check through the serial number to see if it's a genuine convertible? I can find a serial number breakdown that shows it as a Super Wasp, but it doesn't show the numbers corresponding to specific models within the Super Wasp type.

Also, did the hydraulic pump run both the top and the windows? So, is it possible that it was a manual top and manual windows?

The way we restore this car is going to depend a lot on whether or not it's a genuine convertible, so I'm hoping for a definite way to prove it's the real thing or not.

Today we're heading out to the storage place to look at the Hollywood my father bought a while back , and see what's slavageable from it. He mentioned that it had a dual carb setup, so we're going to at least grab those and the intake manifold today.

As always, thanks for the input.

Nick

WildWasp

The serial numbers for Hudson step-downs do not correspond to body type and were serially used. Hudson convertibles with manual windows did not dictate a manual top. Bill Albright or someone with considerable experience restoring convertibles should be consulted as to the reality of a manual top on a Hudson Stepdown convertible. Personally I doubt the existence of a manual top Stepdown convertible... but it is possible. The pictures posted last evening do not show the lower hydraulic ram mountings that support the tubes that would be used on a hydraulic top. The windshield frame has the holes for the top clamp receivers. The pictures do not show the under dash hydraulic control for the top... but the parts pickers may have gotten them also.

The keys to verification of the car's heritage are:

Assurance that the ID plate has not been tampered with... original rivets and the cowl with windshield frame are original to the car.

The body contains the proper interconnection reinforcements for the convertible top mechanism.

The rear edge of the body above the trunk contains the tack strip receiver.

Odd elements of your car include, unless found to be overlooked.

No Hydraulic pump well in the back of the car.

Missing or unseen top controls under dash

No power window interfaces (vehicle could be special order)

No body mounts for the top hydraulic rams

Finally, you are potentially the owner of a one-of-a-kind Hudson Stepdown Convertible. If this is true, your quest for originality and restoration focus should begin with detailed notes and a complete set of pictures of the current condition of the vehicle. This activity would benefit from the advice of folks like Bill Albright, The Davis Brothers, Linden Welle, and others who have done multiple Hudson Stepdown convertible restorations. Before adding or subtracting parts form this car, a careful examination of the appropriate parts would be appropriate.

You are embarking on an especially interesting journeyâ€¦ Hudson convertibles are a challenge to restore, and restoring one that is unique will result in a unique set of experiences. Good Luck!

russmaas

Its hard to tell but I also do not see the depression in the top/forward wheel wells for the convertible top mechanism to sit in when down. If it was hydraulic or manual it would have to sit in a concave well.

Top Down

O.K. I've been out of the Hudson loop for a while and my convert experience has been with 54 only but I'm starting to wonder about this one. It would be great if it turns out to be original but, as mentioned, where is the top going to rest when its down. Notice the heavy gobs of whatever where the windshield header meets the cowl, there is obviously some stick welding done on some of the rear bracing and uneven body caulking on the rear wells etc. Also and it may be of some help, if my memory is still clear the hornet had plated top iron hardware and the wasp and pacemaker converts were painted. If this one has plated pieces it might have been pirated from another car. I've studied these pictures for two days and think the only way to verify it is with a hands on inspection. Hope it turns out to be authentic.

46HudsonPU

More pictures of the SW convertible - reduced -

46HudsonPU

46HudsonPU

silverone

I really, really hope this car turns out to be a "true" convertible for Nick and his Dad !! The joy of finding a treasure such as this cannot be matched in the old car hobby, and its especially sweet when someone who wasn't really all that orientated to the particular marque, not only might have discovered a "one off" car, but also discovers the vast army of well wishers that go along with the find, the "best car club in the world" that's associated with this marque, and the the lifetime of doors that become openable to you, once you begin to fathom the huge potential that this "find" brings along with it.

Having said that, I also know Nick wants to know for sure what he's got here, and once he knows that, can proceed along the right path as to what to do with his car, as would I if it were me the owner. Thusly, I reluctantly have to mention my own couple concerns as to the true authenticity of this car.

#1 is the red primer of the windshiel frame dosen't appear to be showing up anywhere else on the car ? ( could it be a transplanted header ? )

#2 the little weld across each brace just under the rear window lip on each side ( could it be a transplanted convertible window sill ? )

This is a hard post for me to make, because as I said I really, really want this car to be genuine for Nick, and do not relish pointing out something that may help burst the bubble !!

However, I know you need the truth about this car Nick, so this time I hope my concerns are very unfounded !

silverone

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2008 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Nick, whatever the final findings are on whether it is a factory convert or a darn good conversion you have a car enviede by all Hudson guys. Even if a conversion it can not be found to be so by any but the ultimate experts, and it would have to be somewhat dissasembled to do so. What ever, that car deserves to be protected from takeing away from anything that would make it less than what it is We are all thrilled that you and Dad are takeing a new approach to it. You have a real jewel which ever way it ends up, and like Silverone said we're all rooting for the ultimate, but will be happy any way it goes. On this one the best restorers out there are just gonna be itching to give any advice they can, and I think you'll find everyone trying to round up parts for you, these guys are so helpfull other groups just don't seem to get it. Wishing you and Dad the best on this, Bud

Swasp76063

Silverone,
There is red on the rear door jamb on the passenger side. Appears to be the same color as on the header. I don't believe it is primer though. It looks to be red paint. Curious it shows up in those two places and no where else. Could it be that the rear quarters were replaced and that would account for the two braces that were stick welded. I am also not seeing a place to store the top. Not being negative here. Got my fingers crossed it is the real thing. Would make a great companion piece for my 53 Super Wasp sedan.
Bob

dave s

Here is picture of rear floor that shows pump in place. Also note the supports under tray that top lowers onto. (ignore top cylinder on right side of picture)

ralpie

I took me a bit longer than expected to get back to this thread. Several others have pointed out what appear to be differences in this car and what is expected from a Hudson Stepdown convertible. To show side-by-side comparisons I assembled a PDF sheet that compares the 53 SW convertibles with known Hudson Stepdown Convertible pictures taken during restoration. There are several very clear differences and some subtle things that bear further examination. The comparison sheet can be found at this link.
Convertible comparisons.

I have a guess and with out any malice, I believe this car was fabricated from a rusty convertible and a non-rusty 5C chassis. Without direct examination this is a guess. To me there are old and new things about this car in the area of aging a patina. Pure speculation on my behalf... but this has been done before where a convertible was resurrected from a hulk and a good donor. I know this is possible because I repaired my last convertible, a 50 Pmaker with a 53 Super wasp Sedan donor.

Cheers and good luck... the car is well worth saving and I for one would restore the car as a 53 SW convertible... BTW one of my dream cars would be a 54Wasp convertible.... ever seen one? They do not exist... because Hudson made Super Wasp Convertibles. So there are quirks and bends in all of the Stepdown history.

nhp1127

I agree with those that think the car is legit. You got the most knowlegable people looking at this thing and it still can't be disproven. Hudson did so many things differently from other manufacturers and being small allowed them to do so. It's going to cost an arm and a leg to restore this car, but you'll have a rare car and something to enjoy.

nellis003

Well, whether or not it's a legit convertible, I'm going to push to restore it like one. Like I told Russell, it's like the asterisk next to Roger Maris' 61 home runs, but a home run is still a home run.

My dad and I went out to see what could be salvaged from the parts car we had in storage, and it turns out that the parts car is a '52 Hornet 2dr Coupe. That must be where he got mixed up and thought that the convertible was a '52 Hornet. It's got a 308 engine that still has the dual carb setup with intact air cleaners, so we're happy about that.

My ideal plan is to 7X the engine and put that in the Wasp. I've read the description on Ken's site and have a reliable machine shop that can definitely do the work, but Russell also mentioned having to do something different with the dual carb setup to get it to fit in the smaller Wasp engine compartment. Anyone who's been through that and can sound off on it? I'd appreciate any tips.

Is there a good shop manual to pick up for this year and model? I'd like to study that before we start turning wrenches.

My Dad finally read through all the posts on this site regarding the car, and he really got a kick out of it. He thanks everyone for their enthusiasm. So do I.

Nick

Harry Hill

Nick, I think you should go forward with your restoration. You have your work cut out for you but you are going to be rewarded with a fine ride when you're done. Keep us updated on your progress with pictures please.

Harry

russmaas

Look like a nice solid body to do a restoration with. Was the seats with the car? The rear convertible seats are convert only. I also notice that it is missing the side metal that holds the semi curve metal (ashtray metal piece) to the frame. You can see the outline were it had rusted away but the rest of the car shows no sign of rust. So I say with about 100% accuracy it has been converted....but there is nothing wrong with that restore and enjoy

Russ Maas

nellis003

Not sure about the seats, actually. Like I said, my dad got the car couple years back and took a lot of stuff out of it. He may have them stuffed up in the rafters of his garage; we'll have to check and see.

Been looking through photos of some restorations to see what the process is. There are some really nice looking cars out there on the road that had people who genuinely loved them enough to bring them back to life. It's nice to see.

We've got her under roof now and took off the front clip. seems like the car is very solid, now that we can see more of the unibody I can see that there are no rusted through areas, which is a nice way to start. I'm eager to pull the engine out and test fit that 308. Once I've had the 308 block magnafluxed to make sure it's a good block, I want to start in on the 7X conversion.

While that's being done, it's off to the body and paint guy for soda blasting and body work. Does anyone have the stock Hudson paint codes for '53? Need to know what our options are.

Nick

dave s

nellis003 wrote:

Not sure about the seats, actually. Like I said, my dad got the car couple years back and took a lot of stuff out of it. He may have them stuffed up in the rafters of his garage; we'll have to check and see.

Been looking through photos of some restorations to see what the process is. There are some really nice looking cars out there on the road that had people who genuinely loved them enough to bring them back to life. It's nice to see.

We've got her under roof now and took off the front clip. seems like the car is very solid, now that we can see more of the unibody I can see that there are no rusted through areas, which is a nice way to start. I'm eager to pull the engine out and test fit that 308. Once I've had the 308 block magnafluxed to make sure it's a good block, I want to start in on the 7X conversion.

While that's being done, it's off to the body and paint guy for soda blasting and body work. Does anyone have the stock Hudson paint codes for '53? Need to know what our options are.

Nick

Go to Alex page for paint codes for all Hudson's

http://www.freewebs.com/hudsontech/hudsonditzlacpaintcodes.htm

nick s

nellis003 wrote:

We've got her under roof now and took off the front clip. seems like the car is very solid, now that we can see more of the unibody I can see that there are no rusted through areas, which is a nice way to start. I'm eager to pull the engine out and test fit that 308. Once I've had the 308 block magnafluxed to make sure it's a good block, I want to start in on the 7X conversion.
Nick

Not much need of a trial fit, the 308 will drop right in as they are essentially the same size use most of the same internal and external components, they use the same transmissions and mounts, the only issue is with the rear air filter on the twin-h but there are several ways around that and the least of concerns right now.

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2008 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

For the twin " H " I ThInk you will have to go to the later model manifolds from the hashs, they are not as wide. I just sold one a couple wks ago. Gonna send you A PM and an Email. Bud

nick s

37 Terraplane#2 wrote:

For the twin " H " I ThInk you will have to go to the later model manifolds from the hashs, they are not as wide. I just sold one a couple wks ago. Gonna send you A PM and an Email. Bud

Either the stepdown or hash manifold will ultimately work.

twin h was available for the short wheelbased cars, it just had smaller carbs for the 262 compared to the 308.

37 Terraplane#2 · 37 Terraplane#2 March 2008 Posts: 1,659Platinum Member

Nick, somebody had told him he had to do something diff on the dual carb system from the Hornet to the Wasp. That's why I mentioned the later models, they go in anything. I'm sure no authority on it so if you know what it is maybe you could go into more detail for him. Thanks

7XPacemaker

The throttle operates differently on a Pacemaker/Wasp than on a Hornet. Can you use the Hornet linkage? Yes. You'll just have to mod it a little bit.

hudnut1tmr

Nick,

How's this project going? We need pictures!

Tim:)

RL Chilton

I just e-mailed Nick . . . he'll probably chime in soon.

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