Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Discussions27,065
- Orphaned Marques
- ↳ Hudson21,134
- ↳ Street Rods807
- ↳ Off Topic574
- ↳ American Motors149
- ↳ Kaiser - Frazer70
- ↳ Nash70
- ↳ Packard163
- ↳ Studebaker122
- Classic American Cars
- ↳ Ford Motor Company956
- ↳ Chrysler Corporation477
- ↳ GM Corporation1,396
- ↳ Post War Chevrolets75
- ↳ Pontiac Forum119
- General
- ↳ All makes1,960
- ↳ Poll Discussions24
- Swapmeets & Events
- ↳ Events130
- ↳ Swapmeets108
- Hot Rod Corner
- ↳ Ford Rods90
- ↳ Lead Sleds67
- Special Interest Groups
- ↳ The Flathead Forum139
- European marques
- ↳ MG Car Company2
- ↳ Mercedes-Benz2
In this Discussion
- 46HudsonPU December 2005
- 50C8DAN December 2005
- bill a December 2005
- boothguy December 2005
- Chris Smith December 2005
- dwardo99 December 2005
- Geoff C., N.Z. December 2005
- Heart Of Texas December 2005
- hudsonguy December 2005
- hudsontech December 2005
- Overdrive December 2005
- SuperDave December 2005
- tombpa December 2005
- tristansdaz December 2005
- Uncle Josh December 2005
destroke a 308?
-
Anybody know of a 232 crank in a 308 block, would it work? If my math is right, you'd end up with a nearly square 3.81x3.88 bore and stroke for 265 cubes. Seems like it might be a smooth high revving combination. I'm sure somebodys been down this road before and I'm searching with the wrong key words..
-
I have not done it, and know little about it.... but it does sound doable but.. The deck height is higher on a 308 That is why a 262 or 232 head raises the compression on a 308....so you would have to have special pistons made with the pin position adjusted.
I wouldn't doubt that Jack Clifford experimented years ago. I'm sure you will get some detailed info from a more experienced Hudson engine builder. There are several that visit this forum. I like to hear about guys like you that think outside the box..
Dave -
Yep it works fine! My neighbor also a Hudnut built up his '49 C6 convertible with such a combination a few years ago. He has driven it many miles and loves the set up. Also a number years ago Bernie Siegfried wrote and article in which he pitched to management to use the 232 crank in a 308 or 262 block (can't remember which) for a high reving (relatively) short stroke engine for a special Hudson sport coupe for '54. I think his proposal was that it would be based on a Wasp platform. Of course it never made it but it was an interesting idea nonetheless, especially since it would have used basic on the shelf components for a pretty neat setup.
-
Yes, it works great. I've done it, but a very long time ago in the late 70's. The engine runs strong but doesn't have the torque for a quick start (not for drag racing!) However, it ran really smooth and would rev to 5500 without any problems. It may even go higher but I never tried it. Also used the 232 head for higher compression. Good luck!
-
Is there any good reason for going to a 232 crank in a 308? Less torque & lower compression do not appear to be reasons to do this swap/change...
-
destroking seems to be the opposite direction most builders go since torque is what moves your car and gives the sensation of accelleration. I think a better plan would be to offset grind the 308 crank and get even more torque and cubic inches. You dont need to spin high RPM's to get power from a big inch engine and it will not wear out as quick or be prone to breaking parts. How about a 350ish cubic inch engine? I believe it would spank a 260ish destroked engine in every possible way except perhaps fuel economy.
-
dsHave a 262 crank in Hornet block, runs fine, just put it in car and hopeing for longevilty, BILL ALBRIGHT
-
I too recall reading the article about the late Bernie Siegfried converting an engine by re-manufacturing the connecting rods somehow, so he could use the 232 crank with the 308 standard pistons. The results would be interesting, as torque would be down, but b.h.p. probably increased at much higher engine revs, and it would be arguable as to how much this could be utilised usefully, except perhaps for racing purposes. Personally, I consider the best possible adaptation of standard Hudson components would be to use a 308 crank with the 3-9/16" bore. This would give much greater torque, and improved reliability without the head gasket problems which were unfortunately inherent in the weaker blocks of the 308. It would need special pistons with a lower compression height. Shorter rods could be used instead of lower pistons, but this would affect torque characteristics, and would be much more difficult than lower pistons. And a 232 head would give the necessary higher compression. So many ideas - so little time!
Geoff.If you're stuck in a hole, stop digging. -
Back in the day I had a 292" Ford Y-Block V-8 that was destroked using a 239" crankshaft from a 1954 Ford Y-Block. The 292 was bored to its limit, and the whole thing was balanced, with high-compression pistons, and a camshaft designed for the setup. I forget the exact size, but I think it was about 268".
Bottom line was that it never ran as strong as a 312" Y-Block bored out to 324".
The engine was built as an experiment to duplicate the characteristcs of a Chevy V-8, i.e. a high revving short-stroke engine.
It failed because the Y-block Ford is notorious for having heads that do not breathe well, so it could not take advantage of the high revs. This is despite the fact that head work was done on the best heads available (ECZ-G castings from 1957-era 312's)
The destroked Ford would rev nicely until it began gasping for air around 5500 RPM, whereas the Chevies with their much better breathing heads could easily rev to 7000. As a comparison, NASCAR engines (small block V-8's) live in the 8000-9000 RPM range.
Remember that all the power that a gasoline engine produces is the result of the expanding gas pressure upon the tops of the pistons, known as "BMEP", for Brake Mean Effective Pressure. That pressure is from burning the air-fuel mixture, which is limited in volume to the engine's ability to breathe. More air means a bigger fire, thus more power.
A high-revving engine moves a lot of air, thus produces a lot of power.
However, an engine that has poor or middling breathing ability cannot rev very high under load, and thus cannot take advantage of the short stroke. The Hudson stepdown motor cannot breathe well, due to the inherent limitations of the flathead design.
The old racer's adage (and street car adage) is true: There is no substitue for cubic inches. If you want smoothness and power, have the bigest motor you can get balanced to race car specs, along with your driveshaft and quality new tires, (and trued rims). -
We used to watch our old 49 Super Six mechanic, Stan Lupka, who passed a year ago, who ran a 308 on the dirt track until they changed the rules and limited the track to 300 inches to get rid of his motor. So he put a 262 crank in the 308 which detuned it to about 299.5 and continued to beat them, so they told him he couldn't use the 308 block any more because it was originally larger than 300 inches!
Then he put the 308 crank in the 262 block and bored it to 299.9 inches. Ran high in the turns and kept it wound up. Was track champ for several years and was inducted in the Dusty Doyle hall of fame. I interviewed him two years ago and he was laughing yet! -
We're building a 308 bored .060 with a 262 crank. My uncle used to race this engine back in the 60s and says it ran strong. It's going in the Super Wasp if I ever get time to work on it. He has a 262 with a 308 crank in his truck for which he had pistons made that take Chevy 235 piston rings. Unfortunately the truck is returning to the earth so I can't report on how well it runs.
-
Uncle Josh,
What a great story! You say you did an interview with Stan. Sounds like the perfect WTN article. Forgive me if that's already been done, I'm an HET'er only since 2003. -
Uncle Josh's story reminded me of another fun Hudson story. My brother used to race roundy round local short track races in central IN. He raced an early 70's Camaro w/ SBC and still builds engines for racers near Anderson and Muncie. One night some guys brought a different car than they normally ran and won one of the races quite handily (remember these were (are) very short tracks. Unfortunately they were disqualified when it was found that they were running an in- line 6 cylinder engine (not the V8 that was required), a Hudson 308 in a Camaro!
-
50C8DAN wrote:Uncle Josh's story reminded me of another fun Hudson story. My brother used to race roundy round local short track races in central IN. He raced an early 70's Camaro w/ SBC and still builds engines for racers near Anderson and Muncie. One night some guys brought a different car than they normally ran and won one of the races quite handily (remember these were (are) very short tracks. Unfortunately they were disqualified when it was found that they were running an in- line 6 cylinder engine (not the V8 that was required), a Hudson 308 in a Camaro!
Old Hudson racers were nothing if not sneaky. Uncle J points out what can be, and has been, done to Hudson engines over the years. Many of the internal workings of the 232, 262 and 308 blocks are interchangeable. I have a lot of that info in my files at home - including the stroking and overbores that are possible. You can get a 308 up into the neighborhood of near 360 cubes.
When I get back to Maine I'll dig that material out of it's musty file folders and perhaps post it on here. It doesn't qualify as "street rod" material, IMHO, because it's all built tough using Hudson stuff.
Hudsonly,
Alex B -
hudsontech wrote:Old Hudson racers were nothing if not sneaky. Uncle J points out what can be, and has been, done to Hudson engines over the years. Many of the internal workings of the 232, 262 and 308 blocks are interchangeable. I have a lot of that info in my files at home - including the stroking and overbores that are possible. You can get a 308 up into the neighborhood of near 360 cubes.
When I get back to Maine I'll dig that material out of it's musty file folders and perhaps post it on here. It doesn't qualify as "street rod" material, IMHO, because it's all built tough using Hudson stuff.
Hudsonly,
Alex B
I'd like to see that stuff, maybe archive it on somebodys Website -
Smokey Yunnick ran them backwards in Nascar to take advantage of better rod angle as I remember
-
Tom
He flipped the rear to compensate for the engine running opposite of stock rotation. An article I have includes his reasoning that the stock rotation of the 308 created centrifugal forces which pulled the car away from the center of the track. By reversing the rotation those forces pulled the car to the center of the track. -
Great info guys. These old mechanics were wizards. During the interview with Stan, we had brunch at McD, and 2 different guys saw and remembered him and came over and started talking. At this point he hadn't raced for 40 years.
In the early 60s he told me he was gettin out. He was a grandpa, and he said "when you don't have to hold your foot on the gas with your right hand anymore, the excitement is wearin off' lol.
I think I'll contact his son this year and get some better pics and I already have an article written for the WTN, on 'THE WONDERFUL SUPER SIX HORNET'.
Told me he raced 6 and 8 splashers also, and all were winners. Said if somebody was on his tail, they knew they were doin good. He never blew a Hudson engine in a race, a tribute to Hudson engineering and careful prep I'd say.
