ClassicCar

Sgnl50

This pic is from the Hunnert Car Pile Up in Illinois this past weekend

MikeWA

Great looking car, and I love the name of the meet! Let me take a wild guess that they had substantially more than a hunnert cars.

Would show you what a sectioned stepdown looks like, if I knew how to post pictures. Dan, would you do the honors? Thanks-

Hudson308

Mike (WA) wrote:

Great looking car, and I love the name of the meet! Let me take a wild guess that they had substantially more than a hunnert cars.

Would show you what a sectioned stepdown looks like, if I knew how to post pictures. Dan, would you do the honors? Thanks-

Here's what Mike's car looks like. Nice car... remember seeing it ocassionally here in Minneapolis.

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Sgnl50

The show is huge they have to turn 100's of cars away. There is a pretty "famous" sectioned stepdown called " Night Train" It was featured in Hot Rod magazine in 57.

Hudson308

Wow.... great pics!

What do you know about the history of the car?

bent metal

That 1947 is AWESOME! Cool car.

The night train step down, isn't that the one that Ed Mueller has?

Browniepetersen

Gee, really great looking cars. My 39 convertible has had 12 inches (our best guess) sectioned out of the body. This is about as good as it gets!!!! Love the stepdown sectioned, but, it is a bit hard to get a feel of the change with nothing to compare it against. However the coupe leaves nothing to guess about.

Hudson308

Browniepetersen wrote:

Gee, really great looking cars. My 39 convertible has had 12 inches (our best guess) sectioned out of the body. This is about as good as it gets!!!! Love the stepdown sectioned, but, it is a bit hard to get a feel of the change with nothing to compare it against. However the coupe leaves nothing to guess about.

My guess is you've already seen this car as well, Brownie...

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MikeWA

Thanks for posting the pic for me, Hudson308- Someday, I just gotta sit down and figure out how to do that!

Mine was built by a fellow in Minnesota between 1952 and 1955- has a '51 308 "crate motor". The guy reportedly wasn't even a "car guy"- just wanted to see if he could do it. Sectioning was very popular in the late '40's and early '50's, in Popular Mechanics and other auto magazines. That's probably when Brownie's car and the purple Barris car were built, as well. Looking at the Barris car- I'd say when you get the hood lower than the fenders, now THATS a section job!

The other car Sgnl50 posted is the only other sectioned stepdown, at least as far as I know. It was built in the early '50's by a guy named Duane Aspengren from Chula Vista, CA. Was in Hot Rod mag twice- in early '50's when first built, and in (I think) 1958, from whence the top picture came. It had an Olds V8 engine, and roll and tuck interior, I think. I had never seen the other 3 pics- and was very interested to see them. Where is it now? Several have said Ed Mueller of San Bernardino has it- is that him in the pitcture? Its not Aspengren.

Some have also said it was more "channeled" than "sectioned"- about 4 inches trimmed off the bottom of the body panels, and body lowered over the frame. Looking at mine, I can't really see how you could do that without having a big gap at the bottom- although I suppose you could bring the floor out laterally to meet the bottom of the body panels. In any event, the end result looks very similar to mine.

SuperDave

Night Train looks more like a car that has been channeled and a portion of the lower body (rocker area) removed. A true sectioning would keep the same upper and lower contures and a section in the MIDDLE removed. A real challange on the rear quarters!! Wish I hadda tudor to play with.

RL Chilton

I think all the stepdowns look pretty cool. The '46-'47's to me looks like an example of, "Just because you can . . ."

Browniepetersen

The Purple car (Belongs to a Hudson Member) and mine are built from the designs of Charles Martz. I simply refer to them as "Martz Cars." My research tells me that there were about a dozen built from Hudson cars. Not sure how many from other cars. I have found a Buick and a Nash. The Martz article ran in the September 1952 Motor Trend Mag. The Purple car was built from a 47 sedan if my memory is correct and it, and the original Martz are the only ones on the road today. Doing this to a stepdown would be a metal work of art. Would love to see someone tackle a Broham...

ralpie

Mike (WA) wrote:

...Several have said Ed Mueller of San Bernardino has it- is that him in the pitcture? Its not Aspengren. ...

Looks like a young Ed Muller... but then I used to look young too... Peter K what say U?????

Hudson308

Keep in mind that slicing Mike's car through the beltline was quite a feat in the 50's using a gas welder. You need to section the firewall, inner fenders, doors and rear interior structure as well.

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The story I heard on the purple job is that the Barris brothers built it from a junkyard convertible with a blown engine. Originally they combined it with the drivetrain from an Olds that had been wrecked.

A local member by the name of John Kranitz is almost finished with a similar car in red, but without quite as much height taken out.

bent metal

SuperDave wrote:

Night Train looks more like a car that has been channeled and a portion of the lower body (rocker area) removed. A true sectioning would keep the same upper and lower contures and a section in the MIDDLE removed. A real challange on the rear quarters!! Wish I hadda tudor to play with.

I think so too.

I'm looking at the step downs here (all of them) and they don't look sectioned to me?? They look channeled. Meaning about four inches was removed just above the rockers. Basically lowering the body over the floor pan. One of the reasons it looks that way to me is if you sight down the 'belt line' (don't know what else to call it) it looks like it follows the factory lines and is about the original distance down from the windows. It goes forward, just above the front wheel opening, and if it continued would run into the bottom of the headlight. Just like original. Now in the black and white picture the front wheel opening is squared off, but the body line is still there. It's still a lot of work to channel one of these. And the fact that some people, including me, are trying to figure out years later what exactly they did says a lot for how nicely the work was done.

Also, I've been thinking about the car that Ed Mueller has. It's been years since I've seen it and I know I'm the one that suggested the black and white photos are of his car, but maybe not. If I remember right his is lower than the one in the photos. I'm remembering Ed's as a section being removed just above the belt line. hmm ...Now I want to see it, see how good my memmory is.

MikeWA

Bent Metal, mine is a true section job- the 4 inches was taken out in the part below the "beltline", about 4 or 5 inches above the floor. The weld is still visible in the body behind the door. I am familiar with the "looks" of the area where the side and floor intersect on these cars, and it hasn't been tampered with.

My car was involved in a "fender-bender" in about 1968 (owner's son driving), with right front fender and passenger door damaged. Apparently builder had completely lost interest in the car, because it then remained in the garage until he died in 1995. A "car guy" from down the street had seen it when the garage door was up, and stopped in to try to buy it from time to time. By then, the builder had Altzheimers, and would not sell the car (sometimes he would not remember he had it). After his passing, his widow called the fellow and sold it to him. Interestingly, there was also an early '70's station wagon with fairly minor damage in the garage as well, with less than 20,000 miles on the clock- so he bought it, too. I talked to the buyer, and he said the front fender was a real challenge- he ended up cutting the replacement into 7 pieces before he "got it right". He drove it for awhile, then sold to a guy in Sonoma, CA, from whom I bought it.

Hudson308

Tough to tell, isn't it Bender?

One place you can see a bit of a difference is in the rear fender. If you draw a line straight up from the leading edge of the rear wheel opening, the distance above and below the style line is pretty close to 1:1 on a stock Hudson. On Mike's car, this is more like 5:3 from top to bottom. There also isn't as much vertical contour to the style line at the rear, where it curves down to meet the rocker extension just in front of the rear bumper. The builder likely "stepped" the slice down as he got toward the rear of the car... maybe even down to the fender/rocker seam?

MikeWA

I think you're right about the rear- just trimmed the bottom, aft of the style line- doing it any other way would have been a nightmare, with the compound curves of the trunk and rear fenders. I want to park next to another coupe sometime, and compare the two with the trunks open.

bent metal

It sure came out awesome. Too bad there are no pictures of it in bare metal. I'd like to see how it was done. I've never sectioned a car, I've channeled, but not sectioned. It looks like a crazy amount of work. Some day I'll do one.

The one that Mr. Mueller has is not too far from me. Maybe I can ask him if I can take a picture in a week or two. From what I remember it's a much more agressive custom than anything pictured here.

rambos_ride

If only I had unlimited time and money...

MikeWA's is 4" from the bottom - I'd do it in smaller chunks, spread out!

This would be my vision for a custom, sectioned, chopped, pancaked stepdown Hudson - I can see it in my mind, but can't draw worth a darn

It would be an excessive amount of work but the result would be a low-slung agressive looking stance! If someone has some Leno type bucks and want's me to build them one - I'd be up for that too

bent metal

HA! I think you just drew what the sale adds looked like for that model year!!

Now wouldn't that be cool to bring to life!?!?!

rambos_ride

bent metal wrote:

HA! I think you just drew what the sale adds looked like for that model year!!

Now wouldn't that be cool to bring to life!?!?!

Yes it would!

I just realized my reverse pie cut chopped top representation is backwards in the picture.

I'd take 2" out of the front tapered to 1" in the rear which would give the top a more agressive stance without the need to modify the quarter windows or rear window.

RL Chilton

Dan-

You're on the right track. A little here, a little there keeps proportions somewhat in check. I always think the "sectioned" jobs that took say, 3-4" all out of one area, look like that after the section job. These kind of modifications always look so much better when you can tell someone, "yeah, we chopped it 3"! " And the response is something like, "Really? I didn't even notice it was chopped!".

In the mind's eye (or the sub-conscious), proportion is everything, which usually means that heavy modifications of style changes require 3 or 4 times more work to really make it look "right" (and I use the term loosely).

MikeWA

I've always been fascinated with sectioning (guess that's why I bought the car!). Remember seeing an "in progress" picture of the Oldsmobile custom "Polynesian" with the pieces taken out of the sheetmetal, before lowering the upper portion onto the lower. To make it easier, they always tried to take pieces out of the flattest part of the side- and that sometimes meant moving the cut line up or down. The Polynesian even had a portion that was cut at an angle (but of course, the vertical distance has to be constant, so it will all fit).

Russell and Dan's points are well taken- anything is possible, and you could probably get the proportions more appealing by modifying the curves (especially on the hood, I think). But looking at Dan's proposal- are any of us gonna live long enough to finish a project that complicated?

Some have said my car loses the Hudson proportion of low greenhouse compared to body depth, which is true. If you did a 2 or 3 inch section, plus a 2 or 3 inch top chop, it would be a totally different car (and probably better looking)- and look at the fun you'd have doing it! Two nightmares instead of one!

Hudson308

As Bent Metal suggested, you'd end up with something similar to what is depicted in period sales ads. THAT would be cool if you could somehow keep it all stock looking.

A couple older fellas (that shoulda known better) walked up to Dan Lydon's stock-looking '50 Pacemaker brougham at last summer's Back to the Fifties show here in St. Paul. As they approached us, the one guy was arguing rather loudly that "there's no way they made the roof that low from the factory". He was so sure of himself we didn't bother correcting him.

RL Chilton

Mike (WA) wrote:

I've always been fascinated with sectioning (guess that's why I bought the car!). Remember seeing an "in progress" picture of the Oldsmobile custom "Polynesian" with the pieces taken out of the sheetmetal, before lowering the upper portion onto the lower. To make it easier, they always tried to take pieces out of the flattest part of the side- and that sometimes meant moving the cut line up or down. The Polynesian even had a portion that was cut at an angle (but of course, the vertical distance has to be constant, so it will all fit).

Russell and Dan's points are well taken- anything is possible, and you could probably get the proportions more appealing by modifying the curves (especially on the hood, I think). But looking at Dan's proposal- are any of us gonna live long enough to finish a project that complicated?

Some have said my car loses the Hudson proportion of low greenhouse compared to body depth, which is true. If you did a 2 or 3 inch section, plus a 2 or 3 inch top chop, it would be a totally different car (and probably better looking)- and look at the fun you'd have doing it! Two nightmares instead of one!

As far as living long enough, that's a good point. Our very own Mrs.Bojigger here on the forum is tackling just such a conversion, only instead of the section job, he's making a 3W coupe out of a sedan. All the problems associated with chopping the top, along with the 2DR conversion, lengthening the doors, re-figuring for CV/HLWYD doors, shortening the quarter and lengthening the back deck, but leaving the short decklid is a comparable project in amount of work. And time: I can't remember for sure, but something like 2-decades-plus now as the clock runs.

Turbopackman

I really like the '47 and back jobs, mainly the one in the first pic of this thread. Very nice looking, and done with taste, IMHO. The second one on here is too much though, as I don't like it when the fenders are higher than the hood. There should be a limit to the section, IMHO.

Hudson308

Turbopackman wrote:

I really like the '47 and back jobs, mainly the one in the first pic of this thread. Very nice looking, and done with taste, IMHO. The second one on here is too much though, as I don't like it when the fenders are higher than the hood. There should be a limit to the section, IMHO.

Are you saying that George & Sam Barris made a mistake on the proportions? :eek:

Actually, I agree... the first car's lines look better. If the stories I've heard are true, that purple job was one of the first attempts they made at major custom mods. The workmanship, however, looks top-notch from what I remember seeing at the Madison Nationals. I'm glad the running gear was returned to Hudson power, as well.

ralpie

Hudson308 wrote:

Here's what Mike's car looks like. Nice car... remember seeing it ocassionally here in Minneapolis.

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More pictures of this car and other Hudsons that are in the weeds....

:cool:

:D

http://public.fotki.com/rikster/11_car_photos/customcars_i_like/hudson_custom_cars/

jsrail

That '47 looks just like the early Mercedes Benz cars. I know this will sound really weird coming from me, the first guy to say sawzall it....but, personally, I don't like those sectioned jobs. Looks way out of proportion to me and it makes the top look like it's too tall. The stepdowns look better sectioned I think. But it's only an opinion.

Okay, has everybody recovered yet? LOL

rambos_ride

Heart_Of_Texas wrote:

More pictures of this car and other Hudsons that are in the weeds.... :cool: :D

http://public.fotki.com/rikster/11_car_photos/customcars_i_like/hudson_custom_cars/

Even MikeWA's car is featured!

Turbopackman

Hudson308 wrote:

Are you saying that George & Sam Barris made a mistake on the proportions? :eek:

Actually, I agree... the first car's lines look better. If the stories I've heard are true, that purple job was one of the first attempts they made at major custom mods. The workmanship, however, looks top-notch from what I remember seeing at the Madison Nationals. I'm glad the running gear was returned to Hudson power, as well.

Just because he's George Barris doesn't mean he gets everything right! I think a little less from the center section and maybe a couple of inches from the roof (an equal amount) would have looked better. Again, just MHO.

Hudson308

Turbopackman wrote:

Just because he's George Barris doesn't mean he gets everything right! I think a little less from the center section and maybe a couple of inches from the roof (an equal amount) would have looked better. Again, just MHO.

Hmmm.... from the article posted on that fotki link Ken provided, this car was built by a guy named Leonard Clapper in Florida. Apparently I've been "Hudwinked"!!! :eek:

RL Chilton

RL Chilton

Doesn't that look like a large-mouthed bass coming to eat you? That's downright scary!!:eek:

Browniepetersen

Hudson308 wrote:

Hmmm.... from the article posted on that fotki link Ken provided, this car was built by a guy named Leonard Clapper in Florida. Apparently I've been "Hudwinked"!!! :eek:

That does leave some questions? Having talked with Gus once or twice, I still expect that Barris was in there somewhere? But does leave one wondering? History or Folklore--You make the call...

VicTor Z

Bent Metal ! Get a picture of your '49 coupe with the custom tail lights and head lights, with the gate hinges on the trunk. See you tonight at the CIC board meeting!

bent metal

VicTor Z wrote:

Bent Metal ! Get a picture of your '49 coupe with the custom tail lights and head lights, with the gate hinges on the trunk. See you tonight at the CIC board meeting!

Victor I only show that car to a select few who I believe can handle it. The "out of the box" thinking on that one is too much for most people to absorb.

Besides, you didn't mention the custom grill or the drop down doors.

VicTor Z

Bent metal, don't remember the drop down doors, (work by gravity and rust), do remember the grill, duel exhaust pipes , split (???????) exhaust manifold!

46HudsonPU

rambos_ride wrote:

If only I had unlimited time and money...

MikeWA's is 4" from the bottom - I'd do it in smaller chunks, spread out!

This would be my vision for a custom, sectioned, chopped, pancaked stepdown Hudson - I can see it in my mind, but can't draw worth a darn

It would be an excessive amount of work but the result would be a low-slung agressive looking stance! If someone has some Leno type bucks and want's me to build them one - I'd be up for that too

Hmmm - Maybe coordinate this with Chaz, and see about getting it on a 'MetalMeet' agenda... (?)...

:cool:

bent metal

I think this looks like what 'Rambo's Ride' is talking about. Anyone else have a sale add picture they could post? I'd like to see a picture of a sale add over top of an actual car photograph. Just to see where the differences are.

rambos_ride

bent metal wrote:

I think this looks like what 'Rambo's Ride' is talking about. Anyone else have a sale add picture they could post? I'd like to see a picture of a sale add over top of an actual car photograph. Just to see where the differences are.

Kind-of...

The old style illustrations clearly made the cars look even lower and sleeker.

The sectioning I suggested would subtly slam the body height down, the reverse pie cut chop-top (2" in front to 1" in back") and the pancaked hood would give it an agressive stance and the flush mounted headlights (not frenched), recessed front bumper would be some other subtle changes to add to the agressive stance.

I wish I could draw it out - I can see it clearly in my head

Oh, but to have the time and money (both at the same time would be even better...

)

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