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In this Discussion
- 46HudsonPU November 2009
- 51hornetA October 2009
- HotrodHR October 2009
- mjsandbe October 2009
- RL Chilton November 2009
- SRCraftsman2 October 2009
- stbryson October 2009
- Turbopackman October 2009
Electrolysis for Rust Removal
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See the picture below. What is it? Could it be a new way to recycle kitty litter? Is someone trying to electrocute their cat? Maybe someone trying to make an alternate fuel, home-brewed methane?
Nope - just trying out a process referred to as electrolysis.
The trash can currently has my left inner-fender (with battery platform), and the two smaller kitty liter bins have my '39 Hudson 112 headlight buckets in them.
There has been at least one other thread on this, and plenty of literature on the web concerning this - google search -
See above and below. I put this together yesterday, from existing stuff sitting around the house & workshop, and took me less than a couple of hours to assemble & get it running. I even had the sodium carbonate (soda ash), which is commonly used to adjust the PH in water systems -
In the yellow circle (hard to see) is the battery charger. Initially, I had some trouble, as this charger detects the charge in the battery, and will not function without detecting the charge status in a battery - and since I did not initially have a battery, it would not function at all.
In the red circle is a small 12v lawn tractor battery I pulled from the tractor I use for plowing snow in the winter. The battery is in good shape, has been kept charged by a 'battery minder', but I wanted something stronger for this - thus an actual battery charger. The battery charger does 'cycle' - you can hear it 'click' as it fully charges the battery and turns itself off, and 'clicks' again to begin charging when it detects that the battery is becoming discharged.
The blue circle is a bit more interesting... Those two kitty litter bins currently hold my '39 Hudson 112 headlight buckets, with the lens openings facing up. I observed that since the rust was on the inside of the buckets (for the most part) that the electrolysis was not too effective in removing it. I suspended an additional rod into each lens opening (without touching the buckets), for a more direct route for the electrolysis 'flow'.
Picture of the '39 Hudson 112 buckets -
That pile sitting in front of the buckets is rust, poured out of them. Note the non-standard brackets for holding the lenses - these have been modified for sealed beam headlights. You can see the headlights in the background. -
By the way, this is not necessarily just for smaller parts & pieces.
Here is a thread of someone using it on a very large trailer frame - with plenty of pictures and dialogue:
http://antique-engines.com/trailer-electrolysis.htm
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First items out of electrolysis, two headlight buckets. Appeared to work pretty well, and from what I can see it actually 'pulled' the rust off of the buckets, and onto the sacrifical rods. These pictures were taken after they were allowed to dry and then media blasted - to remove the old paint and black film left by the electrolysis.As you can see, there is a lot of rust through, but what is there is solid metal.Other than the areas of rust-through, these are actually quite solid. I am thinking that these may patch with auto body solder.
Inside of left headlight bucket - Worst of the two. Moisture obviously was trapped inside for quite some time.
Inside of right headlight bucket - not as bad as the left.I have another set of buckets in electrolysis now, they appear to be in better shape than these... (knock on wood :rolleyes: ) -
A couple of photos of the left inner fender, after it was taken out of the tub. All that was done was to scrub it down a bit to remove the black gunk -
I'll probably stick it back in, for a second dunking...
Another piece in the 'tub', this time it is a '39 grille -
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Classic Cars + Science == Cool.
You could make that part of a pretty cool Mad Science Halloween display.[b]Michael S.[/b]
Chronicles of my search for and adventures with my Hornet http://52hornet.blogspot.com -
Rick:
How long have the parts been in the solution? -
Hello Rick,
This is a very interesting and useful thread. Thank you for posting this.
Take care,
Steve Bryson -
SRCraftsman2 wrote:
Pat,Rick:
How long have the parts been in the solution?
The first set of buckets were in the solution about 36 hours. The second set have cooked for about 30 hours, in the same solution, and with the same sacrificial rods. I've put the second set of buckets back in for another couple of days, as I was not satisfied with the cleaning...
The inner fender cooked for about 36 hours, then I 'flipped' it (to get the top, which was sticking out of the solution), and gave it about 30 hours - in the same water, with the same sacrificial rods.
Today I dumped the water mix, cleaned the tubs & scraped the crust off of the sacrifical rods - then put in fresh water with sodium carbonate (soda ash, about 1/2 cup per 5 gal of water).
You might notice the copper pipe in the big tub with a piece of PVC on the tip (?). That was put in as an afterthought, it was sitting around from a bathroom remodel. I don't see any harm in it, and it REALLY conducts the electricity - and corrodes and accumulates rust much more quickly than the steel pieces I am using.
Next time I pull the sacrifical rods, I'll take some pictures of them for this thread...
I've got to pick up some more sodium carbonate - Local co-op carries it in 50 lb bags... -
stbryson wrote:
You're welcome. This has been very interesting, and a lot easier than I had initially thought. As I said, EVERYTHING used in this was sitting around the house and workshop - even the copper wire was leftover from house wiring projects...Hello Rick,
This is a very interesting and useful thread. Thank you for posting this.
Take care,
Steve Bryson
I am keeping my eyes open for something I can put larger pieces into - hood, fenders, doors, etc.. Anyone have thoughts as to what I could use?
I am thinking of the possibility of a 'kiddie pool', or making up something like the picture of the trailer frame soaking (above).
Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions are appreciated! -
How about the bed of a pickup truck? An 8' bed should do almost anything that you need. A good use for the "redneck hot tub" idea!
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If you are looking for a DIY project, google Plywood Aquariums. It is a way to make pretty large water containters, in custome sizes, for reasonable prices.[b]Michael S.[/b]
Chronicles of my search for and adventures with my Hornet http://52hornet.blogspot.com -
See if you can pick up an old plastic water tank from a farm then cut the top off put a hinge on it put it back on and you could easily dunk a fender or a door. My buddy just bought an old tank for parts dunking for 200 bucks its 12 feet long by about 4 feet high.www.hudsonmotorcar.org
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Turbopackman wrote:
Thought about that, especially this past summer - But don't want to have to drive around with a ton of water in the back - and that sodium carbonate is pretty caustic too, it will eat the paint off of metal...How about the bed of a pickup truck? An 8' bed should do almost anything that you need. A good use for the "redneck hot tub" idea!
I can probably make an equivalent, from plywood and 2x4s (would only need the sides), which would work well. Got to look around, and see what I've got in the way of plywood and framing lumber... -
This is a really good thread, Rick.
Recently, I tried another method, which I probably won't do again. I went to Trac. Supply and got a horse feeder type of trough. I put it up on cinder blocks so that I could build a fire underneath it. Owning a wood shop means I have a lot of scraps on hand. I thought I'd be killing two birds with one stone, here.
Anyway, I filled the tank with water and put 6 bottles of the nastiest, most caustic drain cleaner I could find. You know, the "Super Professional Strength Drain Cleaner" type of stuff. Build a little fire under it, heat the water to about 125* and drop parts into it. It worked, especially all the oil, black crud, grease and eventually paint (if you left it in long enough). BUT, it's dangerous, it's high maintenance as well. Additionally, in about 8-10 days, the stuff ate it's way through the tank and now the tank is trash. $75.00 experiment that ended up cleaning a couple dozen parts isn't exactly the best money I've spent lately.
Like your idea better.
Also, those headlight buckets: yep, lead 'em in. That's what I would do. They'll be like brand new when your done. -
Russell if you had tried that same setup with caustic soda you would have cleaned the parts and saved the trough. I have a rain barrel filled with the stuff I dump parts in and they come out pretty clean. Bit of scrubbing and my pressure washer and they are good to go. Pretty low maintenance.www.hudsonmotorcar.org
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RL Chilton wrote:
Thanks Russell!This is a really good thread, Rick.
Recently, I tried another method, which I probably won't do again. I went to Trac. Supply and got a horse feeder type of trough. I put it up on cinder blocks so that I could build a fire underneath it. Owning a wood shop means I have a lot of scraps on hand. I thought I'd be killing two birds with one stone, here.
Anyway, I filled the tank with water and put 6 bottles of the nastiest, most caustic drain cleaner I could find. You know, the "Super Professional Strength Drain Cleaner" type of stuff. Build a little fire under it, heat the water to about 125* and drop parts into it. It worked, especially all the oil, black crud, grease and eventually paint (if you left it in long enough). BUT, it's dangerous, it's high maintenance as well. Additionally, in about 8-10 days, the stuff ate it's way through the tank and now the tank is trash. $75.00 experiment that ended up cleaning a couple dozen parts isn't exactly the best money I've spent lately.
Like your idea better.
Also, those headlight buckets: yep, lead 'em in. That's what I would do. They'll be like brand new when your done.
I was looking for something that would not damage, eat or destroy the metal, was effective and was fairly cheap. The soda ash just adjusts the PH and helps the electricity flow more easily.
Saw some stuff demonstrated at Hershey which appeared to do the same thing, by just soaking the part in their solution for 24 hours - @ $20 per gallon! (www.metalrescue.com).
It is probably something simple added to the water that that costs them a couple of bucks to produce - including packaging, which is probably the most expensive part.
The really sad part is that they are essentially shipping you around 8-10 lbs of water per gallon, instead of just the additive - which you could probably mix yourself... What a waste!
Went to their website - didn't realize I had a $50,000 setup for electrolysis just outside of my workshop! -
Just an FYI for those thinking about doing this - the sacrifical rods/metal needs to be scraped or cleaned at least once a day. They accumulate a LOT of crust & rust...
Also of note - The copper pipe I put into this (mentioned earlier, and shown in one of the photos) got eaten up by the process, at least enough where I can no longer use it.
Cleaned them a few minutes ago, and am continuing the current batch/process - at least through the weekend. -
Some photos that are a bit overdue...
Pictures of the sacrificial rods, fresh out of the 'tub'. This is after 24 hours in the brew. The one bent into a 'U' is a 3/4" copper pipe, which appears to work very well. the two next to it are mild steel pieces, which work well also -
More pictures of sacrficial rods, in the smaller buckets. the two rods on the outside are rebar, which surprisingly do not work well. The two rods in the center are mild steel, which works very well for this.
Here is another picture of the 30 Gal plastic garbage can being used as a tank. That is a '39 Hudson grille in the tub. This picture was taken this morning, just after the sacrifical rods had been taken out, cleaned, and re-positioned. In the yellow circles, take note of the bubbling action (hydrogen gas) released by this procees. Very small bubbles, looks similiar to water simmering on a stove. Not enough to cause issues, at least in the small project I am doing. However hydrogen gas can be explosive in confined or unventaliated areas, one of the reasons I do this outside.
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Hello Rick,
Thanks again for starting this thread, and for continuing with updates. The combination of your detailed narrative and great photos have made it easier for me to understand the process. Sometime down the road I want to give this a try.
Take csre,
Steve Bryson -
How about some before and after pics of parts that you've clean up with this process...
Thanks,
Craig -
HotrodHR wrote:
You're right, I'll see about getting some before & after shots. I have some buckets undergoing the process now that I've already taken some 'before' pictures, and will be doing some more additional pieces in the coming days/weeks.How about some before and after pics of parts that you've clean up with this process...
Thanks,
Craig
Here's a picture of the 'backup grille' that went throught the process, as well as media blasting & has had primer painted on it.
I consider it a 'backup' grille, as it has had some previous damage that was repaired but is obvious upon casual close inspection. It can be repaired, but will probably not look as good as it did originally. -
Ok, it has been a few days, and I have some before and after pictures to share -
Before - '39 hood side curtains...
After electrolysis, but before cleaning. It is easy to see the line were the solution stopped. -
A couple of more photos, taken after some quick abrasive pad cleaning (required for the electrolysis process) -Here are a couple of photos of the '39 grille that came out of the electrolysis with the side curtain. This grille was REALLY rusty, but in one piece -
Please note that the electrolysis process does not 'repair' rusting issues, it just removes the rust, leaving the good metal beneath - pitting and all...
A couple more FYIs -
- After a cursory cleaning with an abrasive pad, I let the pieces dry and then they are put into my blasting cabinet (a bit more of a controlled atmosphere in there). They will be media blasted before putting primer on them.- I keep a moisture removal substance (damp rid - bought at hardware store) in my blasting cabinet while it is not in use, just to keep the moisture level to a minimum. Not sure, but think it helps... :rolleyes: -
Rick-
Are you planning on plating or painting that grill? -
RL Chilton wrote:Rick-
Are you planning on plating or painting that grill?
Looks pretty corroded, doesn't it? It will be painted, after once I have done some work on it. Initially, it will be media blasted and eventually some sanding to try to reduce the amount of pitting. Between all of that and some high build primer, 'hopefully' it will smooth out considerably.
I don't know if you noticed it or not, but the leading/outer edges of the individual horizontal grille pieces are covered in stainless. Unlike the headlight buckets - on this, I am not considering removal of the stainless. I'm just trying to figure some way to cover it during all the work, most likely just with some thin masking tape. -
46HudsonPU wrote:Looks pretty corroded, doesn't it? It will be painted, after once I have done some work on it. Initially, it will be media blasted and eventually some sanding to try to reduce the amount of pitting. Between all of that and some high build primer, 'hopefully' it will smooth out considerably.
I don't know if you noticed it or not, but the leading/outer edges of the individual horizontal grille pieces are covered in stainless. Unlike the headlight buckets - on this, I am not considering removal of the stainless. I'm just trying to figure some way to cover it during all the work, most likely just with some thin masking tape.
I'm interested in seeing your progress on this, especially the grille. A lot of car manufacturers were doing this in '39. By '40 or '41, they went to chrome-plated grilles. With the masking of the stainless, you probably won't be able to lead the grill in (doubt high-build primer would fill those deep pits without a LOT of applications), but plastic filler would work fine and not interfere (much) with the stainless. This is a good spot for such an application. Some patience and finessing on your part should work fine. You're making good progress, Rick. Keep it up! -
That's a tough grille to save, but a good one to save. It's not exactly like '39 Hudson grilles grow on trees in MD (or down here, for that matter).
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RL Chilton wrote:
Thanks for your support Russell, it is appreciated. To be truthful, the folks here & all the threads, posts & pictures really inspire me to 'get out there' and go to it...That's a tough grille to save, but a good one to save. It's not exactly like '39 Hudson grilles grow on trees in MD (or down here, for that matter).
As I indicated earlier, I have been collecting parts for a while. Below is a picture of my 'backup' grille. It might look good in the picture, but it too has its flaws - to include rust, pitting and some lower grille damage... It has already been through electrolysis, media blasting and a basic covering of primer.
My primary focus will be on the better of the two (the one that just came out of electrolysis is currently my #1).
It will only be a few weeks, and it will be too cold to do electrolysis - already temps at night are dipping to the low 30s. Once it gets too cold, I'll postpone doing any more electrolysis - at least until Spring. I'm not too concerned, I have a lot of other things to do to keep myself busy and productive... -
Update:
Getting a bit too cold for this now - although the sodium carbonate probably lowers the freezing point a few degrees, similiar to salt water. My dad used to put a highly concentrated mixture of this and water into the rear tires of his farm tractors for added weight & and incease in traction - the solution would not freeze, on the coldest of winters...
I'll probably pick it up in the spring with the fenders, hood, grille support, etc., maybe even the bed of the truck (?)...
